out of round at headstock

[nates02gt]

I just got off the phone with a 'red lathe' company that will remain nameless. I have the 12" VS version of their lathe. I have begun to get slightly out of round results at the headstock end of the piece I am turning. I thought this may be due to a faulty mandrel, so I tried TBC with bushings and got the same results. I also tried different bushings and that did not help. I also used a dead center and spur center to check the alignment and the alignment looks good. The spindle seems to be tight in the headstock so I am guessing it is not the bearings. Talking to customer service was not very helpful to say the least (though they did set me up with a replacement end for a malfunctioning pen kit). Does anyone have any ideas on anything else to try?

Nate

 

[seamus7227]

if you verified that the dead and live centers lined up, then did you check your bushings mandrel hole? I found a set of mine that were garbage because the hole and outer diameter were not centered. Also, have you set up a dial indicator to check your TBC(while mounted with a tube on them) to see if they are running true?

 

[its_virgil]

Why must the red lathe company remain nameless? I don't understand our reluctance to use company names when offering negative reports. I see nothing wrong with reporting "I have just had a negative customer service experience with XXX company. On the other hand we are more than willing to praise X X X company for the opposite experience.

Is your out of roundness happening after turning or after sanding? When are you noticing the OOR? Several factors can contribute to the problem and you must analyze the problem clearly to find out when it is happening...Every pen. Just some woods. Sharp tools?
Good luck with your diagnosis and solution.
Do a good turn dsily!
Don

I just got off the phone with a 'red lathe' company that will remain nameless.
Nate

 

[nates02gt]

Don,
You do have a valid point about the 'nameless' issue. For me personally, it was a mixed experience. Also, I do not feel very competent when it comes to tuning up my tools. I hope it doesn't sound like 'whining'. 99% of what I have learned has been online from forum users like yourself and it has been great, but as we all know, the online experience has it's limitations. I have not been able to find anyone close that could be a 'mentor' of sorts and living in Vegas, options seem to be quite limited when it comes to woodworking. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't really expect customer service to go way above and beyond (being that it is out of warranty) but I felt like it was lacking. To make matters more complicated, I did have a negative experience last year with the same company but after talking to the manager, got things straightened out. It has just been a less that smooth/pleasant experience overall.
As far as the out of round issue, it is after turning. I am able to minimize it during the sanding process. I tried a few different pen styles with different bushings and different blank material. I am using a few different carbide tools and they are sharp. I was looking at it just a bit ago and I am wondering if the headstock might need to be shimmed. It looks like it may be ever so slightly below the dead center that I have mounted in the tailstock.

I do have a dial indicator but I do not think that it is currently capable of being mounted on the lathe to check.

Thanks to all for the input!

Nate

 

[mick]

Nate, have you checked inside your Morse taper? If there's dirt or a build up of crud inside it can cause the OOR problem.

 

[Ironwood]

Have you tried cleaning the inside of your morse taper ? If they are really bad you can get reamers to clean to clean it out properly.

Edit- Mick had the same idea, I was a bit slower typing though :redface:

 

[PenPal]

Don,
You do have a valid point about the 'nameless' issue. For me personally, it was a mixed experience. Also, I do not feel very competent when it comes to tuning up my tools. I hope it doesn't sound like 'whining'. 99% of what I have learned has been online from forum users like yourself and it has been great, but as we all know, the online experience has it's limitations. I have not been able to find anyone close that could be a 'mentor' of sorts and living in Vegas, options seem to be quite limited when it comes to woodworking. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't really expect customer service to go way above and beyond (being that it is out of warranty) but I felt like it was lacking. To make matters more complicated, I did have a negative experience last year with the same company but after talking to the manager, got things straightened out. It has just been a less that smooth/pleasant experience overall.
As far as the out of round issue, it is after turning. I am able to minimize it during the sanding process. I tried a few different pen styles with different bushings and different blank material. I am using a few different carbide tools and they are sharp. I was looking at it just a bit ago and I am wondering if the headstock might need to be shimmed. It looks like it may be ever so slightly below the dead center that I have mounted in the tailstock.

I do have a dial indicator but I do not think that it is currently capable of being mounted on the lathe to check.

Thanks to all for the input!

Nate

Nate and others IMHO a very quick and accurate method to check basic alignment is to fit good quality dead centres in the head and tail stock bringing the points close to each other having locked up the tail stock, advance the points with a thinnish feeler guage between when lightly together any deviation in any direction becomes obvious. One method to eliminate doubt in this area.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[TBCbushings]

How far out is it???

 

[Signguy]

Rick Herrill has a cool gadget that lets you mount a dial gauge on your banjo. It's not expensive. I just ordered one...

 

[Dale Allen]

I don't understand the idea of assuming the alignment is correct if the points come together.
There is more to it than that.
What would happen if one or both of the centers were out of axial alignment? This can be horizontal, vertical or anywhere in between.
How would the turning of the centers inside the bushings be effected?

 

[wyone]

and how do you fix that if it is the issue?

 

[its_virgil]

Nate,
I think you will find several willing to mentor you here:
http://lasvegaswoodturners.com

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don,
99% of what I have learned has been online from forum users like yourself and it has been great, but as we all know, the online experience has it's limitations. I have not been able to find anyone close that could be a 'mentor' of sorts and living in Vegas, options seem to be quite limited when it comes to woodworking. ,

Nate

 

[wyone]

I have a lathe that seems to not run true, but so far I have not been able to figure out why. It seems to turn out of round on the headstock. When I put in a dead center, or a pen mandrel I can see the out of round when it is running. I have verified the bearings are tight, and it seems like that are in alignment, but now am wondering if it is a morse taper issue. I did get a 20 gauge shotgun brush and clean it out as I read in one of the library articles, but that did not help. I have been using a shopsmith, which runs really true, but the Delta 46-700 is the first that I have had that has a MT on both the headstock and the tailstock.

 

[jondavidj]

Hi Nate, I just bought a Turners Commander lathe, the 10 Variable Speed one and am having the same issue, I think. When I turn it on slow, the mandrel vibrates. When it is fast, no issues. I thought it was the mandrel, changed that. I am calling PSI service tomorrow. If you did get yours there, call Edward in Customer Service. He will point you in the right direction. I have had good experiences with them. I haven't thrown the box away yet because I do not know if I am keeping it. (based on this issue). I did buy a Morse End taper from them and it arrived today. I used it and had no issues. I only had issues with the Live Stock Center. Anyways, I will look at this tomorrow to see if anyone else had any ideas. Tonight was my last straw. It has to be fixed or returned. I have tried three mandrels. I will look and make sure it is clean tomorrow. Hope that helps.

Although, if it is PSI and you called Edward, you would most likely get help. I have learned the go to people there. They are pretty helpful and nice once you get to know them.

 

[nates02gt]

Rick Herrill has a cool gadget that lets you mount a dial gauge on your banjo. It's not expensive. I just ordered one...[
Thanks for the info...I just sent him a message.

Nate,
I think you will find several willing to mentor you here:
Untitled Document

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Don,
I just emailed one of the guys on the website. Thanks! It looks like they might need a little help with the site. I might be able to assist them with that. =)

Hi Nate, I just bought a Turners Commander lathe, the 10 Variable Speed one and am having the same issue, I think. When I turn it on slow, the mandrel vibrates. When it is fast, no issues. I thought it was the mandrel, changed that. I am calling PSI service tomorrow. If you did get yours there, call Edward in Customer Service. He will point you in the right direction. I have had good experiences with them. I haven't thrown the box away yet because I do not know if I am keeping it. (based on this issue). I did buy a Morse End taper from them and it arrived today. I used it and had no issues. I only had issues with the Live Stock Center. Anyways, I will look at this tomorrow to see if anyone else had any ideas. Tonight was my last straw. It has to be fixed or returned. I have tried three mandrels. I will look and make sure it is clean tomorrow. Hope that helps.

Although, if it is PSI and you called Edward, you would most likely get help. I have learned the go to people there. They are pretty helpful and nice once you get to know them.

Jon,
I know I talked to Tony about the pen issue I was having. He did set me up with a replacement piece, which was nice. I don't recall the name of the guy I talked to about the lathe issue. Hopefully you get your issue with your lathe figured out. If I was going to buy a lathe right now, I think I would go for the Jet 1221VS, but that is just me.


Thanks again to all for the input, I really do appreciate it. I will report back once I get a dial gauge set up and make sure everything is trued up.

 

[PenPal]

I don't understand the idea of assuming the alignment is correct if the points come together.
There is more to it than that.
What would happen if one or both of the centers were out of axial alignment? This can be horizontal, vertical or anywhere in between.
How would the turning of the centers inside the bushings be effected?

Of course there is more to everything in life my suggestion was a start point it could be a fluke if the points meet exactly as I described certainly the area of interest varies from half a pen at a time to two halves or one piece pens or bowl or whatever. the single fact remains that this my suggestion is a known fact working from a known always trumps the unknown.

The whole process shows cheap wood turning lathes are a lottery very few provide the accuracy demanded in a metal lathe all are overpriced compared with metal lathes however there are ways to compensate and build accuracy with knowledge and a little help from knowing friends.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[flyitfast]

A lot of comments here about lining up the points using a dead center in the headstock and tailstock. It is a good idea to take it one step further and rotate the spindle with the handle and see if the points stay lined up. I thought mine was lined up until I accidently turned the spindle and the points moved away from each other. Found that the ways on the lathe were a little warped. I shimmed the lathe mounting feet and then the points stayed lined up. Just a thought.
gordon

 

[Sawdust1825]

There is a misconception that out of round is caused by misalignment of the head and tailstock which is not possible. The only thing misalignment can cause is taper but that is easily compensated for with your tool rest. Someone mentioned rotating the spindle which is spot on. But this needs to be done with an indicator. The problem could be the spindle ID or Morse taper is not concentric with the OD which runs in bearings. But it could also be a dead center with the point not true to the taper or dirt in the taper but you have already ran a brush in it. You need a dial indicator to check this accurately. Start with checking the Morse taper ID to see if it runs true when you rotate the spindle. This should be under .001 in my opinion. Then put the dead center in and again check it by rotating the spindle. If it has run out make a reference mark and remove and re-insert at 1/4 turn increments seeing if the result is the same or different. These are the things that can cause runout besides a burr or something causing the bushing to not run true, If you don't use bushings then one possibility has been eliminated. Bushinds can also be out of concentric enough to be a problem. I hope this helps.

 

[nates02gt]

I think I may have partially diagnosed the problem. I ordered a dial indicator adapter from Rick as that seems to be a very good thing to have. I think though, that I may have been locking down the tailstock slightly cockeyed. The tailstock has a little bit of play in it while moving it back and forth on the bed and it needs to be locked down a certain way for it to be square to the headstock. I had paid attention to this while drilling on the lathe but had not really thought about it while turning as I have used a mandrel up until last week. This may mean that the mandrel is in fact bent. More to follow. I have been too busy with other projects to troubleshoot it much more this week.

 

[nates02gt]

Quick update and more puzzling. I got the dial gauge stuff from Rick today (Thanks Rick!) and set it up. If I was doing it correctly, and I think I am, i was only get 1/1000 of runout about 7" from the headstock. I set up the pen mandrel and measured the runout on the mandrel rod about 7"-8" from the headstock. I also measured the runout right where the morse taper fits into the headstock and got the same reading. From what I have read, 1/1000 should be perfectly acceptable and if that is the case, what else could be causing the blank to not turn evenly? I will try to post a picture tonight of a blank to show everyone what I am dealing with.

 

[ed4copies]

bushings with an "off-center hole".

BTDT!

 

[nates02gt]

Ed,
I would agree with the bushings except it seems to be happening on more than one bushing set. I ordered new bushings last week and should have them this week. I will let you know how that turns out.

 

[nates02gt]

Well, I played around with the dial gauge a bit more tonight. I set it up with the bushings on the mandrel and I was getting up to 12/1000 runout when measuring on the bushing. I moved the gauge back and measured at the taper of the mandrel and got less than 1/1000. I finally decided to pull the mandrel apart and see if a new rod would work. I got identical readings with a new rod. Finally, I pulled the mandrel completely apart and cleaned it out with my air compressor. I put it all back together and measured again, getting about 1/1000 runout on the same bushing. I am not sure exactly what it was that was causing it but it appears to have gone away. I turned a few blanks and they are turning round with the bushings. The next test, tomorrow, will be TBC to see if there is still and issue there.

 

[low_48]

Since day 1 when mandrels and bushings were sold, I've always considered the fit between them as too loose. Push the bushing to one side and tighten it in place. Measure runout, loosen and tighten again. Bet you get a different reading again. Hence the popularity of turning between centers bushings.

 

[TBCbushings]

I have been going to tbc bushings...i have mine for kits that i have and some i dont have....

 

[Bowhnter]

Where do you drill holes at? On the lathe or a drill press?

I have just found out my DP is unlevel front to back which I can't adjust. That has cause me some out of roundness that I have been able to correct with a shim when drilling...p.s. I now drill on the lathe whenever possible.

 

[nates02gt]

I drill everything on the lathe. I use the PSI drilling chuck. It seems like drilling on the lathe is much easier and more accurate than the drill press.

 

[Quality Pen]

Interesting thread. I think I need to clean my tools more often too....