More on the sierra bushing topic

[jimr]

After I discovered that I was not the only one with problems with the Sierra kit bushings I tried a few more measurements. I am pretty convinced that the problem concerns the wall thickness of the bushings. I mic'd as accurately as I could and found that the wall thickness varies from .0065 to .0071 from one side of the bushing to the other and I think that I can tell by just looking that they are not the same. That is how I determined where to measure. Now, I am not a machinist and these measurements are certainly not to extreme tolerances but if there is that much difference there is not much that can be retro-fitted to make them rotate smoothly. I also do not know how bushings are manufactured, machined on a mandrel or drilled from solid stock but however it is done, the process is faulty.
I hope someone will either confirm or dispute my findings.

 

[clewless]

You sent me scurrying out to my shop where it is too cold to work today.

My bushing are new, having only turned one pen so far...diameters .0246 and .0247 with wall .064 to .071. My HF vernier accuracy +/- .001 so it looks like we're dealing with .005+/- variation.

I didn't notice any fit problem although I can see that one wall of the pen is thinner than the other.

Maybe mandrel whip and wall variations can add up or negate each other?

Joe in cold, windy MD

 

[jimr]

My variations didn't cancel each other, it just produced a very noticeable wobble making a round pen impossible, for me at least.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by jimr<br />.....I mic'd as accurately as I could and found that the wall thickness varies from .0065 to .0071 from one side of the bushing to the other.....

Jim: I'm not exactly sure what you mean by wall thickness; but the dimensions that you posted vary by 6 ten-thousandths of an inch. I really don't think you can "see" that small a difference. I just pulled a hair from my head......a major sacrifice as I don't have too many to spare......and it measured about 0.001". That means the difference you are looking at is about half a "hair". [][] You must have really good eyes. And in any event, I don't think that small a difference is going to significantly affect the ability to turn a round pen???

 

[jbyrd24]

Just a note....Have turned many Sierras now. I haven't had any problems at all with the bushings. I'm using the bushings for the Wall Street II.[]

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by jimr<br />.....I mic'd as accurately as I could....

I'm puzzled....did you use a micrometer or a vernier caliper for your measurements??

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by clewless<br />...

My bushing are new, having only turned one pen so far...diameters .0246 and .0247 with wall .064 to .071. My HF vernier accuracy +/- .001 so it looks like we're dealing with .005+/-variation....

Joe: I guess the bushings I have are better than yours; but, at least, we are in the ball park. Mine measure 0.066" to 0.068". Are your bushings recently purchased or have you had them for a while?? Seems to me that I saw a post saying the problem had been fixed. It would be nice to have some measurements from someone who has the earliest bushings. Mine are relatively new and supposed to be OK.

BTW, a piece of newspaper is about 0.003" thick and supposedly about the smallest offset that the average human can feel. If your bushings are out of round by 0.005" you are getting to the point where you should be able to "feel" the wood/metal interface on your pens.

 

[Mikey]

.005 is actually pretty easy to see with the eye. .003 to me is a lot harder to see. .001 is near impossible. I know that if I take my set of feeler guages and look at each thickness, I can really see that one is thicker.

I have bought something like 4 sierra sets so far. The first cuple were junk. The last two sets yielded me one set of near perfect bushings, or at least it seemed that way at the time.

 

[PatLawson]

Originally posted by jimr
<br />After I discovered that I was not the only one with problems with the Sierra kit bushings I tried a few more measurements.

There is a known problem with the Sierra bushings. It has now been corrected in a second version of them, but if you have the earlier bushings, you're gonna have a problem! The problem is that the step part of the bushings is too small in diameter and is a sloppy fit in the brass tube. This causes out-of-round problems when turning the barrel. I have one of the first sets of bushings and had the out-of-round problem. Can't believe I didn't notice how sloppy the fit is, but didn't think of it until someone told what the problem is. You need to use a "shim" inside your brass tube to make the bushings fit tighter. Either that or get the newer, corrected set of bushings.

Pat
Laguna Beach, CA
http://PensByPatricia.com/NewPens

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by Mikey<br />.....I have bought something like 4 sierra sets so far. The first cuple were junk. The last two sets yielded me one set of near perfect bushings, or at least it seemed that way at the time......

Mikey: Do you still have a set of the old bushings and a vernier caliper so you could take some measurements for us?? Thanks,

 

[jimr]

OK- so I got the first "0" on the wrong side of the decimal but I still think I can look down into the small end of the bushings and see a difference in thickness of the wall(between the hole and the outside of the bushing)If this is the case then I don't see where any kind of shim would correct the problem. If the small diameter is sloppy in the tube then some kind of "shim" should correct the problem although I sure don't know what i would use for a shim, maybe one layer of thin tape? This would be a real hassle every time I wanted to turn a pen or else dedicate one mandrel to only sierras. I had this problem with the first sierras I ordered and notified BB and he sent me the replacement I have now. This all happened within the past 2 weeks so I am not sure if the production problem was corrected or not. I guess I will just put up with it but it sure may reduce the number of sierra kits I order, and I really like the styling.

 

[Randy_]

Pat's post got me to thinking that maybe we have two different problems here. We'll have to wait for a clarification from Jim on his measurements; but Pat's point is the diameter of the smaller step on the bushing is smaller than it should be to fit in the brass tubing snugly. Soooooo.....I got out my measuring instruments a second time and measured the OD of the small step on the bushing and the ID of the brass tube.

Results: Bushing= 0.3835" Tube= 0.0391" Difference= 0.0065"

I don't know what the difference should be; but, intuitively, that difference looks pretty big. Think I will measure the bushings on one of my Jr Statesman kits to see how the bushing and the tube fit on that one??

I'll add those measurements on to the end of this post in a few minutes.

Update: I won't bore you with all of the details; but the essential figure is that the bushings for my Jr Statesman kit are 2-3 thousandths smaller than the tubes.....much tighter than the Sierra bushings.

 

[Randy_]

Hey Jim: Could you take a quick measurement of the OD of the small step on your bushing and offer a verbal description of how the bushing fits in the tube, i.e. snug, loose or very loose? Thanks

 

[jimr]

I will have to wait til tomorrow morning for that measurement. The fit of the bushing in the tube was a bit sloppy but I didn't think it was enough to cause the wobble I was having. You are right, there are two issues here(1) small end outside diameter and (2)what I think I have, a difference in the actual thickness of the bushing wall from one side to the other. Someone who has experienced this problem please look at the small end of the bushing and see if you think the wall thickness looks thinner on one side. If this is the problem then the bushing will never run true because the mandrel hole is not in the center of the bushing.

 

[PatLawson]

You are right, there are two issues here(1) small end outside diameter and (2)what I think I have, a difference in the actual thickness of the bushing wall from one side to the other. Someone who has experienced this problem please look at the small end of the bushing and see if you think the wall thickness looks thinner on one side. If this is the problem then the bushing will never run true because the mandrel hole is not in the center of the bushing.

Well I'll be darned! You are right Jim, I just inspected mine more closely and my bushings are not only a sloppy fit in the tube, but yes, the hole is off-center too! That just really amazes me because obviously the hole would be drilled first, then the metal turned down, so this shouldn't even be possible. But the hole is definitely off-center on mine. And btw, I've also discovered that one bushing is worse than the other. In fact one of my bushings may actually be okay. Anyway Jim, my observations agree with yours. Whether it is one or two problems, the thing that is pretty clear to me is that these bushings really shouldn't be used at all. []
Pat

 

[PenWorks]

Bottom line is they BITE big time. This seems to be a very popular new pen kit, I like the looks of the kit and easy to make. But definately has issues with the bushings and loose threads in the mechanism.
Jim.......are you listening.......??
Do you hear your customers.......??
Sure would be nice to see some fixes come down the pipe, or you might end up with a couple of thousand kits that are useless.[)]

 

[snoplow]

Just eyeballed mine, and they are bad too. Sloppy in the tube and the hole is off center. .013 difference in wall thickness. (approx) I purchased mine in Dec. from AS.

 

[Randy_]

Gee.......will this ever stop???[][]

Guess that I will have to get out my dial indicator tomorrow and put the Sierra bushings on the mandrel and see what kind of runout I get. I'm thinking we may need to get BB in on this discussion??

 

[Randy_]

I agree that this is a great kit and it would be a shame to avoid it just because the bushings suck. For those who are having bushing problems, you can always make your own bushings. I've done that before.....made my own bushings out of Corian.....and you can do it on your lathe. You could also use aluminum or brass. Both are soft enough that you could use your own turning tools. They would not last as long as steel bushings and you would have to be careful about sanding dust; but it "CAN" be done!!!

 

[Mikey]

Sorry, didn't see any posts after the one I posted last night. I will go out to the shop later when I get home and start measuring. In another post I mentioned that I dumped my tray out on the floor, so I guess this gives me a chance to sort them all out.[]

What I really wanted to say was that my wife's friends have all seen my pens and by far the choice with girls is the Sierra. More popular than Barons, and even slimlines. In fact, I have an order placed for a custom pink one.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Originally posted by PatLawson

That just really amazes me because obviously the hole would be drilled first, then the metal turned down,

Pat,
Not necessarily. It would not be out of the ordinary for the bushing manufacturer to buy tubing with the hole already formed in it and then just turn the outside dimensions. It is far cheaper to make a tube with a hole in it than it is to drill a hole in each bushing as it is manufactured. A bad run of tubing from a tube mill or a bad chuck in a automatic screw machine and every bushing will have the hole off center.
Mac

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by Mac In Oak Ridge
<br />

Originally posted by PatLawson

That just really amazes me because obviously the hole would be drilled first, then the metal turned down,

Pat,
Not necessarily. It would not be out of the ordinary for the bushing manufacturer to buy tubing with the hole already formed in it and then just turn the outside dimensions. It is far cheaper to make a tube with a hole in it than it is to drill a hole in each bushing as it is manufactured. A bad run of tubing from a tube mill or a bad chuck in a automatic screw machine and every bushing will have the hole off center.
Mac

All that may be correct. But it is no excuse for a supplier to knowingly ship a defective product. I have avoided the Sierra because of previous discussion just like this one. The problems are not imaginary if so many report them.

 

[Old Griz]

Jim.......are you listening.......??
Do you hear your customers.......??

Jim.......are you listening.......?? Probably not, he once told me that the people who go to these forums should not even be turning pens.. so I doubt he even sees what is going on here.

Do you hear your customers.......?? He also informed me that he has forgotten more about pen design than anyone else will ever know. I tried to talk to him about the directions for a pen not being complete, and was told that if I could not figure out what to do, I should not be turning pens...

Now I like Berea's products and will continue to purchase them, but the attitude of the owner leaves a bit to be desired... the other gentleman who works there will spend as much time as you need explaining anything you need.

 

[wayneis]

Tom how long are you going to beat that horse, that conversation happened a long time ago.

Wayne

 

[alamocdc]

Originally posted by wayneis
<br />Tom how long are you going to beat that horse, that conversation happened a long time ago.

Wayne

Maybe so, Wayne, but the company told me that there were nothing wrong with the bushings (even though they had new ones made with a better tolerance) and that "...literally thousands of Sierras had been made with them." And that was in November. I'm still using the original set that I "modified" so that I could get a concentric pen and have not yet checked the fit of the new ones I got.

The point is simply that this sort of customer support is sorely lacking. Granted, I may not turn the best pens on the planet, but compared to many others I've seen at shows and craft fairs... well, let's just say I wouldn't dare try to market much of what I've seen.

 

[Old Griz]

Originally posted by wayneis
<br />Tom how long are you going to beat that horse, that conversation happened a long time ago.

Wayne

Does that make it any less true??? It is an example of how he thinks..

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Rifleman
<br />

Originally posted by Mac In Oak Ridge
<br />

Originally posted by PatLawson

That just really amazes me because obviously the hole would be drilled first, then the metal turned down,

Pat,
Not necessarily. It would not be out of the ordinary for the bushing manufacturer to buy tubing with the hole already formed in it and then just turn the outside dimensions. It is far cheaper to make a tube with a hole in it than it is to drill a hole in each bushing as it is manufactured. A bad run of tubing from a tube mill or a bad chuck in a automatic screw machine and every bushing will have the hole off center.
Mac

All that may be correct. But it is no excuse for a supplier to knowingly ship a defective product. I have avoided the Sierra because of previous discussion just like this one. The problems are not imaginary if so many report them.

Frank,

I agree with you...but do give Sierra a try and you'll probably like it. It is one of my favorite kits.

I am not happy with the bushing too but that didn't stop me. I'll probably buy a new set when I order a new batch of Sierra kits.

 

[LanceD]

I bought two new sets from Beartooth woods thinking they would be a better fit than the original i bought from AS several months ago but that wasn't the case, they were still too loose. Now what i do is take a piece of the plastic bag that the parts came in and lay it against the hole on the two ends of the blank and push the bushings into to hole then put the blank onto the mandrel. The plastic takes up the extra space with a tight fit and theres no play whatsoever

 

[Rifleman1776]

Dario, thanks for the encouragement. But this is supposed to be a fun avocation. Having to modify, shim, stuff, adjust or whatever to make something work that should be right in the first place is not my idea of fun. When/if they get it right, I'll reconsider.

 

[jimr]

Randy, you asked about the OD of the small step. Both of my bushings measure .3845.
I did not realize when I started this thread that this was so wide spread a problem. I certainly did not intend for it to become a personal issue. My feeling is that Berea has to know the bushings are defective and apparently they are not willing to do anything about it. That is very unfortunate for a company like them who really does have excellent products because in the long run they will suffer for it.
I think I will just try to "make do" and probably avoid ordering what I think is a super pen kit. If I figure out a way to EASILY fix my problem I may think about getting some more.

 

[Old Griz]

Originally posted by LanceD
<br />I bought two new sets from Beartooth woods thinking they would be a better fit than the original i bought from AS several months ago but that wasn't the case, they were still too loose. Now what i do is take a piece of the plastic bag that the parts came in and lay it against the hole on the two ends of the blank and push the bushings into to hole then put the blank onto the mandrel. The plastic takes up the extra space with a tight fit and theres no play whatsoever

No matter what reseller you purchase the bushings from, you are still getting bushings made by Berea... the resellers do not make their own bushings...

 

[PatLawson]

Mac wrote:
&gt;&gt;...It would not be out of the ordinary for the bushing manufacturer to buy tubing with the hole already formed in it and then just turn the outside dimensions... A bad run of tubing from a tube mill or a bad chuck in a automatic screw machine and every bushing will have the hole off center.&lt;&lt;

Ahha. Okay, that makes more sense Mac.

Randy wrote:
&gt;&gt;I agree that this is a great kit and it would be a shame to avoid it just because the bushings suck. For those who are having bushing problems, you can always make your own bushings.&lt;&lt;

Absolutely Randy. I'm not going to avoid the kit. My best bushings are my calipers anyway. And if you can turn a pen, you can turn a set of bushings. (And Mac, I will drill the hole first and then turn the bushings! Lol.)

Pat L.

Laguna Beach, CA
http://PensByPatricia.com/NewPens

 

[KC]

I just got a new set yesterday from AS, which we know comes from Berea. I looked at these, and the hole is quite obviously not centered in one of them, and not quite so obviously not centered on the other. One of them is a good fit on the tube, one is not. Like someone else mentioned, I use the calipers on the Sierra...bit it is irritating as hell to know that they realize a problem exists, perhaps has been corrected, yet we still get 'bad' ones. When are the bad ones gonna be removed from stock and only good ones shipped?

KC

 

[alamocdc]

Well that's not good. I have the original run set (had to modify) and one of the newer sets that was supposed to correct the problem. I have not checked the new ones yet, but I will now. [V]

 

[Mikey]

The problem, even when using calipers is: If the hole is off center, then the blank will be spinning on a concentric, so even with use of calipers, you will still get an out of round pen. the only way this is solved is if you make your own bushings or start with a set that is round to begin with.

 

[vbatwork]

Wouldn't it be nice if once a problem like this is addressed and fixed by the manufacturer, a little Version 2 sticker were applied to the package?

I've been playing around with pens for almost a year now. I'd hate to see the kind of bushings I'm capable of at this point! [V] I'll be avoiding the Sierra until I can get a good set of bushings from someone.

 

[gerryr]

I don't believe this problem is confined just to the Sierra. I ordered a few Sierras not too long after they came out and also ordered a couple of Churchills. One of the smaller bushings for the Churchill was also eccentric. I've only made three of them and until I sell some, I won't be ordering any more. I wonder if Berea switched bushing suppliers?

 

[Bill Baumbeck]

We have become aware there there are some bushings for this pen (20A) in which the center hole was drilled and reamed off-center and we did receive and ship some of these inaccurate bushings. We have removed from inventory the entire lot that we had on hand are expecting a new shipment of bushings on Monday, January 30.

Should you have a pair of 20A bushings that were purchased from us during the month of December, 2005 and up to January 27, 2006 that you suspect are drilled off-center we will replace them for you. Please keep in mind that not all bushing sets were made incorrectly.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

Bill Baumbeck
Arizona Silhouette
www,arizonasilhouette.com

 

[cd18524]

I just recieved a new set of bushings yesterday from AS and they are from the not so good group. I am glad that BB has been made aware of the problem and is stepping up to take care of his customers.

chris

 

[jimr]

Bill, I really appreciate your post on this matter. This is the second set, as you know, that you sent and they are also off centered. I will be glad to mail you back this set, just like I did the first off center set and I would greatly appreciate receiving a set of bushings that have been corrected. If you need my address, please let me know.
Thanks for your consideration

Jim Reasoner