More of a proof of concept than

[alamocdc]

anything else really. And why I didn't put it in SWOP. I hobbled together a few jigs for an idea I "copied". I've been wanting to try this for a few years now, but just haven't taken the time. Now I'll build some better jigs so the things I want to do are more repeatable. This one has more flaws than I care to mention, but I Just had to show it. It actually incorporates a few different ideas. Like multiple cuts, and filling voids w/resin (in this case, black). I just used some scrap Walnut and Cherry for the woods.

 

[thewishman]

Looks sweet, Billy!

Chris

 

[thewishman]

Or should I say, "tweet"?!

 

[avbill]

Bill

was your jig for a table saw or bandsaw?

Bill

 

[alamocdc]

Table saw, Bill.

FWIW, this pen is NOT segmented. The walnut is still in one piece.

 

[rjwolfe3]

Tutorial?

 

[Russianwolf]

are we going to have to change your name to eaglette?

nice look from what I see.

 

[alamocdc]

Originally posted by Russianwolf

are we going to have to change your name to eaglette?

Heheheh, I knew someone would recognize where I got it.

Rob, I'm sorry, but there is no tutorial... until and unless the originator of this "style" writes one. To date only he has done blanks this way, to my knowledge. IF, and that's a big if, I even did it the way he does. I'm not really sure b/c I don't know that he's ever posted much about his technique. Regardless, I just wouldn't feel right about writing one up.

I will tell you the same thing he told me a few years back. If you think you have an idea of how to accomplish it, try it. It'll either work or it won't. I will also share that this rather crappy version was my fourth try.

 

[GaryMGg]

Well done Billy. Glad to see you continue to ignore the lack of guidance to build what you want to build.
But, since there's no tutorial, are you gonna do a youtube video [)][][}][}]

 

[rincewind03060]

Very pretty!
The pattern in the wood has a nice Art Deco look (a style I really like), but I think it would look even better with a plain center band. CB is too busy in my opinion.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Neat. Is your new nickname "Knuckles"?

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by alamocdc

Originally posted by Russianwolf

are we going to have to change your name to eaglette?

Heheheh, I knew someone would recognize where I got it.

Rob, I'm sorry, but there is no tutorial... until and unless the originator of this "style" writes one. To date only he has done blanks this way, to my knowledge. IF, and that's a big if, I even did it the way he does. I'm not really sure b/c I don't know that he's ever posted much about his technique. Regardless, I just wouldn't feel right about writing one up.

I will tell you the same thing he told me a few years back. If you think you have an idea of how to accomplish it, try it. It'll either work or it won't. I will also share that this rather crappy version was my fourth try.

First, let me make it perfectly clear that it is completely your decision to not do a tutorial and I support that decision. That being said, I wouldn't not do the tutorial simply because this is a style of blank that someone else made first.

I would not have a problem doing a tutorial on how to make an RTV mold, for instance, even though Gadget made the first ones (for our purpose, on this board). Gadget hasn't shared any secret techniques with me, so I wouldn't have a problem explaining my method to anyone else.

Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with explaining how I would create a PR bottle stopper with a whatchamacallit cast inside, since Ed hasn't shared any of his secrets with me and I wouldn't have a problem explaining how I would use my laser engraver to make a flag or puzzle pen since Ken hasn't schooled me on his method.

It's great that some people have been the first to do some really cool things, but after a while, we have to feel free to share what we know or the forum gets stagnant real quick. In my opinion, we're all here to get better at what we do. By sharing ideas and constantly building on what has come before, we can create some amazing pieces of craftmanship.

 

[MikeInMo]

First off, I think that pen is really cool looking.

However, I am confused.

Billy - In the original post, it says the pen i walnut, cherry and resin. In a later post, you say the walnut is in one piece. Even without a full tutorial, could you or someone else give a quick explanation of the basic concept or link to the original post this is based on? Thanks.

 

[loglugger]

Originally posted by sbell111

Originally posted by alamocdc

Originally posted by Russianwolf

are we going to have to change your name to eaglette?

Heheheh, I knew someone would recognize where I got it.

Rob, I'm sorry, but there is no tutorial... until and unless the originator of this "style" writes one. To date only he has done blanks this way, to my knowledge. IF, and that's a big if, I even did it the way he does. I'm not really sure b/c I don't know that he's ever posted much about his technique. Regardless, I just wouldn't feel right about writing one up.

I will tell you the same thing he told me a few years back. If you think you have an idea of how to accomplish it, try it. It'll either work or it won't. I will also share that this rather crappy version was my fourth try.

First, let me make it perfectly clear that it is completely your decision to not do a tutorial and I support that decision. That being said, I wouldn't not do the tutorial simply because this is a style of blank that someone else made first.

I would not have a problem doing a tutorial on how to make an RTV mold, for instance, even though Gadget made the first ones (for our purpose, on this board). Gadget hasn't shared any secret techniques with me, so I wouldn't have a problem explaining my method to anyone else.

Similarly, I wouldn't have a problem with explaining how I would create a PR bottle stopper with a whatchamacallit cast inside, since Ed hasn't shared any of his secrets with me and I wouldn't have a problem explaining how I would use my laser engraver to make a flag or puzzle pen since Ken hasn't schooled me on his method.

It's great that some people have been the first to do some really cool things, but after a while, we have to feel free to share what we know or the forum gets stagnant real quick. In my opinion, we're all here to get better at what we do. By sharing ideas and constantly building on what has come before, we can create some amazing pieces of craftmanship.

Steve, I would agree with you except these people are still selling their idea as a product, if you did a tutorial on one of them then you are depriving them of selling their product as every one would be selling. If they quite selling that product then it would be ok to do the tutorial. If every time some one showed some thing new and the next day some one did a tutorial on it then pretty soon people would quit showing their new stuff and things and the fourm could dry up. If you come up with a idea and want to share thats fine but it is not right to share some ones elses idea, that is theirs to share. If you can make thier product fine show it, use it, but keep the know how to your self.
Bob

 

[redfishsc]

Steve, I would agree with you except these people are still selling their idea as a product, if you did a tutorial on one of them then you are depriving them of selling their product as every one would be selling. If they quite selling that product then it would be ok to do the tutorial. If every time some one showed some thing new and the next day some one did a tutorial on it then pretty soon people would quit showing their new stuff and things and the fourm could dry up. If you come up with a idea and want to share thats fine but it is not right to share some ones elses idea, that is theirs to share. If you can make thier product fine show it, use it, but keep the know how to your self.
Bob

[/quote]

Agreed, but with a twist. Personally I am not out to make a buck with my inventions, unless it happens to be a nice side benefit. Anything that CAN be made by the average joe, while having fun and saving money, is in my opinion fair game for all. The only difference is if there are copyright laws in effect, which there seem not to be in these cases. To me, if it is 1) possible, 2) possibly fun, 3) possibly money/time saving, 4) legal, then everyone could see it as fair game.

With the creativity I have seen on this forum, let us all know that "Imitation is the best form of flattery".

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by logluggerSteve, I would agree with you except these people are still selling their idea as a product, if you did a tutorial on one of them then you are depriving them of selling their product as every one would be selling. If they quite selling that product then it would be ok to do the tutorial. If every time some one showed some thing new and the next day some one did a tutorial on it then pretty soon people would quit showing their new stuff and things and the fourm could dry up. If you come up with a idea and want to share thats fine but it is not right to share some ones elses idea, that is theirs to share. If you can make thier product fine show it, use it, but keep the know how to your self.
Bob

I would certainly agree with you if alamocdc was privy to Eagle's methods, but he isn't. In my opinion, the fact that he was able to create the blank without Eagle's help means that the method is no longer a secret and could be shared.

It should also be mentioned that I shared how I make molds similar to Gadget's a few weeks ago. As far as I can tell, this hasn't stopped him from selling molds.

The way I see it, people may or may not buy a blank like the one discussed in this thread. Their decision to buy a 'needed' item will always balance cost against difficulty/expense of making their own. I don't believe that this decision is greatly altered by a tutorial.

 

[GaryMGg]

Originally posted by sbell111
...The way I see it...

[V]
The way I see it, you're trying to convince Billy to write a tutorial when he's already explained why he believes it's the wrong thing to do. Back off and let him be.

 

[alphageek]

My 2 cents... Not knowing how Eagle did it and not knowing how Billy did it either---- They are perfectly right in keeping the exact to themselves if they so desire. One of these days I want to try and create something like this too. If you want a tutorial - start with Woodturning design magazine issue 14, page 36. This is the first step a blank like this.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

http://woodturningdesign.com/issues/summer07.shtml

 

[Tanner]

Great looking pen Billy! Excellent craftsmanship! I've seen on other posts where people poke and prod until the person shares his procedure. Poke...poke.

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by GaryMGg

Originally posted by sbell111
...The way I see it...

The way I see it, you're trying to convince Billy to write a tutorial when he's already explained why he believes it's the wrong thing to do. Back off and let him be.

If you believe that, you both missed my first post to the thread and missed the point of the other one.

As for whether I want the OP to write a tutorial, I could care less. While I recognize the skill it likely took to create such a blank, I don't care for the look. Therefore, I wouldn't make a similar pen even if a tutorial was shared.

The point of my posts was to comment on the reasons to or not to share our techniques.

 

[Tanner]

Hey Steve, I'm with you. I'm not a big fan of those blanks either. It just seems a lot of people drool and fall all over themselves whenever they see one. So why not share the process. I don't believe there is a patent on the process. There are three different tutorials in the library on Hidden, Recessed and Countersunk clips. There are a few tutorials on PR casting and Segmenting Pens. Warren is doing an awesome PR casting on Youtube. From what I’ve seen this forum is for sharing ideas. Many people have shared some really great ideas here, and I thank them for that. If someone wants to keep secret their procedure, that's fine, it's their prerogative. I do however thank the people that share their ideas and procedures to help us all get better at this craft. I can't imagine where I’d be in pen turning if not for the tutorials I read from Don Ward and DVD's I purchased from Russ and BB, besides the huge wealth of information I’ve picked up here. Thanks to many sharing their procedures I can make a pretty darn nice pen.

 

[alamocdc]

Just to be clear, I never said I didn't have Eagle's help. I just didn't have it directly. I've read literally hundreds of his posts and we've communicated on a number of things in the past. If one pays close enough attention during these reads and encounters, little hints are "dropped out" here and there. This effort was simply derived from adding up the tidbits along the way.

FWIW, Ron's article in WTD will get you started concerning some of what I did. I'll leave it there and stand on my original reply concerning the current debate.

I will add one more note. And I feel it is rather important. One of the posters mentioned selling blanks such as this. To my knowledge, only Eagle sells them, and it will remain so. I have no intent to sell a blank of this nature... ever! And that too is my perogative.

 

[GaryMGg]

I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my reading comprehension ability.
First this:

Originally posted by Tanner

Great looking pen Billy! Excellent craftsmanship!...

Then this:

Originally posted by Tanner

Hey ... I'm not a big fan of those blanks either....

[?] Did you like it or not?

And Steve wrote this elsewhere when he first joined the IAP:

Originally posted by sbell111
... You see, I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site. If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it emphasis added.

I don't abide with that. I guess we live by a different code of ethics. To me, when you go to a big show and copy someone's idea for your shows you will see them again at the next big show and you will be in direct competition.
We don't have to agree; I'm confident we won't.

I've written tutorials albeit only one for the IAP. They're a lot of work.
Before someone asks someone else to write a tutorial, I'd like them to try this:
Start a time clock.
Take something in a pen you already make -- no matter how simple -- and write a full blown tutorial with photos. Get it ready for publication. Reread it and fix all the flaws. Repeat 'til someone else can replicate your work.
Stop the clock.
Now, think about that effort before asking, "Where's the tutorial?"

I guess more than anything else, what's getting under my skin is the ubiquitous requests I see for tutorials wherein the poster seems to suggest it's an expectation rather than a gift someone presented.
Does anyone here regularly ask others for gifts, like at holidays or birthdays?!?
Does anyone go to work and say, "Hey, it's my birthday, where's my gifts?"
Well, that's how I perceive tutorials -- they're gifts from those who've made the EFFORTS.
Stick a fork in me, I'm done.

 

[ed4copies]

As time has marched on, there are theories that the Electric light was made BEFORE Edison, some say Bell was NOT the first to create the telephone. In more than a few instances, patents have been granted to ONE inventor, while another applied just a few days later. So, INDEPENDENT thinkers who like to tinker CAN come up with the same design INDEPENDENTLY.

In this case, no doubt Billy SAW Eagle's work and made every attempt to copy the result. I saw Billy's pen yesterday, I immediately said, "Eagle sent you a blank??" Since Eagle SELLS these blanks to other guys like us who MAKE pens, I think Billy has every right to make them for himself (as we all do), but I admire (and would emulate) Billy's ethics in keeping his methods to himself.

Eagle was undoubtedly the first (in this community) to SHOW this design. In our own little way, he has the "copyright". He certainly does NOT have the monetary ability to DEFEND his right. But, I think MOST of us will grant him his right to SELL his blanks, without competing.

Having SEEN Billy's pen, I can only say it is a great TRIBUTE to the work of Eagle. And, that's the way Billy presented it. Billy is PROUD of being able to produce a COPY for HIS OWN USE. In my opinion, he GAINED in stature yesterday (I have never KNOWN Billy very well, so this is not meant to "slam" any prior behavior). I believe if we all live by the ethical standard being shown here, there will be squabbles, but there is no REAL harm done to whatever market Eagle (or any of the rest of us) enjoys.

I hope this is clear--

Just in case: Billy, you're a class act, in my opinion. AND the pen is really well done (but the woods are boring and you knew that!!)

FWIW

 

[wolftat]

I like the pen, you did a nice job creating it. I will continue on with making my own pens my way and I hope you continue to do what makes you happy. All the rest of this is senseless arguing over nothing. I'm going to my shop now to make some of my own pens,instead of arguing over nothing. Keep making your pens your way Billy, like I said, nice job.

 

[Tanner]

Hey Gary, just so you know, I said the same thing about a Gisi pen here awhile back. They look great, excellent craftsmanship, a little too busy for my taste. I believe I can say a pen looks good and not like it right? I think Pamela Anderson looks good but I don't like her. Roy posted a pen made from a blank Eagle made a few weeks back and I said he did a great job with it, however I felt it was a little busy for my taste. I got a nice email from Eagle a few days later saying that's the first thing he said about the Gisi pens. He said he changed his opinion when he saw them in person. He seems like a real nice guy.

Sorry Mike, got my seems wrong. I'll have to be carefull of that in the future.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Originally posted by Tanner
He seams like a real nice guy.

We are not too sure about Eagles seams, not sure he has any other than on his blanks, but he more than seems like a great guy to us. We will probably get blasted for this but under that gruff surface,he is really a teddybear.

Ed you nailed it on the head with Billy. The blank to us is bland because of the woods used. He used scrap to learn the process as he said this was number four. I am sure once Billy gets his technique down he will use complimentary contrasting colors, which is something that Eagle is very good at. Kinda makes him an artist![]

Mike & Linda

 

[Sfolivier]

I think this really boils down to why we are on this forum. I know it seems a simple question but it's rare we take the time to think about why we are posting and reading on this forum.

Personally, I'm here to share, to see other pens and try to apply new ideas to my designs. To learn tricks so I don't want to reinvent the wheel and can spend my time thinking about something new instead. There's nothing about my little workshop that I wouldn't explain and if one day I stop feeling this way. I'll leave the IAP. You can't be part of a discussion group if you don't want to discuss.

There are two "excuses" I consider valid to hold information back: the first is being a professional and making a living off pen making, the second having to tell about techniques that are not yours. It would be unfair to expect professionals to damage their income. It would also be unfair to hold professionals spending at least 8 hours a day making pens accountable to dilettantes who spend 2 hours a week doing so. And it would be unethical to spread secrets that aren't yours.

In this case, "Alamocdc" thinks he got enough from "Eagle" that he doesn't have the freedom to share his new trick. It's fine.

The only word of caution is that eventually, XYZ will start making the same blanks. It's only a matter of time, like everything else. And then everybody will forget those posts and know them as XYZ's blanks .

PS: And like many other, I appreciate the craftsmanship but have mixed feeling about intricate designs, beads, etc... I'm very spartan and like to let the trees make all the patterns This style of blanks is nevertheless truly ADMIRABLE.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Originally posted by alamocdc

FWIW, Ron's article in WTD will get you started...

That's the whole idea, to get people started on an idea in hopes that they can take off from there and add to the concept.

I used the same technique on jewelry boxes and picture frames to join miters and decorate the corners. I learned how to do this from reading a book. The only real difference on the pen is I used a lathe to make it round.

Eagle's pen are in a class all by themselves. Just like there are millions of artists that have placed paint on a canvas and only a rare few who can turn paint and canvas into a masterpiece.

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by GaryMGg

I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my reading comprehension ability. ...

And Steve wrote this elsewhere when he first joined the IAP:

Originally posted by sbell111
... You see, I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site. If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it.

I don't abide with that. I guess we live by a different code of ethics. To me, when you go to a big show and copy someone's idea for your shows you will see them again at the next big show and you will be in direct competition.
We don't have to agree; I'm confident we won't.

So, you're taking the position that you shouldn't take steps to improve your practices? You shouldn't learn from others that are doing things better? I guess we don't agree.

BTW, a better place to discuss this would have been in the original thread, not off-topic in this one.

Let me know if you have trouble with any of my other posts. (Did you reaally go back and read all of them?)

Originally posted by GaryMGgI've written tutorials albeit only one for the IAP. They're a lot of work.
Before someone asks someone else to write a tutorial, I'd like them to try this:
Start a time clock.
Take something in a pen you already make -- no matter how simple -- and write a full blown tutorial with photos. Get it ready for publication. Reread it and fix all the flaws. Repeat 'til someone else can replicate your work.
Stop the clock.
Now, think about that effort before asking, "Where's the tutorial?"

I guess more than anything else, what's getting under my skin is the ubiquitous requests I see for tutorials wherein the poster seems to suggest it's an expectation rather than a gift someone presented.
Does anyone here regularly ask others for gifts, like at holidays or birthdays?!?
Does anyone go to work and say, "Hey, it's my birthday, where's my gifts?"
Well, that's how I perceive tutorials -- they're gifts from those who've made the EFFORTS.
Stick a fork in me, I'm done.

I don't understand where you are coming from. It appears that you are (purposely or not) mistating our posts. No one has taken the position that anyone should HAVE to write a tutorial.

The OP appeared to originally be taking the position that he was not privy to Eagle's methods, but would not explain his method because Eagle was using the method. (I found this logic to be faulty and stated as much.) As it turns out, the OP was privy to Eagle's method. Therefore, his decision makes much more sense.

 

[sbell111]

I just wanted to add that when people ask for a tutorial, they are complimenting the person on a job well done. Apparently, some members (who do not wish to learn from others, apparently) believe that these requests are not a compliment, but are some kind of insult. Strange.

 

[ed4copies]

Steve,

The "tutorial" debate raged long ago. It degenerated into several personal attacks. Some of us are very sensitive to the possibility of a "rerun" and would really LOVE to AVOID it.

So, what you SAY may not be nearly as pointed as what SOME of us READ!!!

Just a FWIW. Let's not over-react. OK???

 

[alamocdc]

Ed, I think I know Eagle just well enough to know that he is actually laughing at all of this. And in some strange and twisted way that actually puts a smile on my face. Oh, and I was actually quite humbled when you told me what you did when you first saw it. As for the bland woods, wait for the next one.[8D]

 

[GaryMGg]

Lessee,

Originally posted by Tanner
...I think Pamela Anderson looks good but I don't like her....

Point well made; I'll buy that. I suppose I expected `nice work but not for me' to be in the same post. I took your follow-up for backpedaling. Mea culpa. I apologize.

--------

Originally posted by sbell111

Originally posted by GaryMGg

I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my reading comprehension ability. ...

And Steve wrote this elsewhere when he first joined the IAP:

Originally posted by sbell111
... I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site emphasis added . ...

... To me, when you go to a big show and copy someone's idea for your shows you will see them again at the next big show and you will be in direct competition. ...

So, you're taking the position that you shouldn't take steps to improve your practices? You shouldn't learn from others that are doing things better?...

No, I'm taking the position that you ARE in direct competition with the other turner at a show you're both at, and I'm NOT taking a competitor's work and competing with him on it when he's present.
I would use the idea in a different venue wherein he isn't present because I don't see that as direct competition.

Originally posted by sbell111
BTW, a better place to discuss this would have been in the original thread, not off-topic in this one.

I think it's related.

Originally posted by sbell111
...Did you really [sic] go back and read all of them?

I didn't have to; I remembered that post.
I simply looked it up to be certain NOT to take it out of context.

Stuff about tutorials elided ...

Originally posted by sbell111
I don't understand where you are coming from. It appears that you are (purposely or not) mistating our posts. No one has taken the position that anyone should HAVE to write a tutorial.

Now I believe you've misread me. Perhaps I should've started with

I guess more than anything else, what's getting under my skin is the ubiquitous requests I see for tutorials wherein the poster seems to suggest it's an expectation rather than a gift someone presented

and then given the illustration about how much time is involved and that it's a present.
The tone I read into it was more one of expectation. It may not be what you intended to communicate; it may just be what I got out of it.

Be that as it may, I'm not alone in the feeling that lots of folks ask for a tutorial everytime they see something new to them. I've had several members, new and old, communicate to me about it -- and, not in a positive manner.

It's my opinion asking someone to write a tutorial puts them on the spot.
It's a lot of work and is something that should result from their choice only.
The request for tutorials should come from Jeff and the moderators and should be done in private or as a general reminder to all of us. In the final analysis, the decision to write one should be a voluntary act attained without any coercion.
I believe it's fine to write one on anything that isn't someone else's work -- I expect we're in agreement on what's reasonably one's own idea to share and what isn't.
For instance, someone posts a gorgeous inlay cross similar to Eagle's. That person has clearly figured out what it takes to make the inlay and cross with exacting, repeatable accuracy. If they decided to write a tut., so be it. As a woodworker I know how it's done and I've discussed it with Eagle, thus I'll never ink it.

I've probably read every tutorial posted.
I've only written one because I don't do anything terribly different than others.
In fact, I've copied or modified numerous works others have made available here.
I've edited several written by others -- that in itself is a good bit of work. I'd do it again because it's good for the members here.
I've only made one pen that's probably really unique; it's in my album and anyone can copy it if they want to go to the effort. It's not rocket science.

Originally posted by sbell111] ...
Apparently, some members (who do not wish to learn from others, apparently) believe that these requests are not a compliment, but are some kind of insult. ...

That's childish.
I may hold an unpopular opinion regarding the requests for tutorials. I stand by my opinion. However, I'll let my post history speak for itself when it comes to sharing ideas, techniques, tools, and tips.

 

[ldb2000]

Hi All
My 2 cents on this is that the tutorials are wonderful and helpful but only as a guide...I want to make MY pens . If I see a pen at a show that I like I will admire it and try and use the ideas to make my own version but not to copy it ... the last thing I want to do is make XYZ's pen I want my Own creation .
There are enough ways to make a pen that we can all have original creations that our customers will come to know as OURS , remember ... most of the pens we make are still based on the same handfull of kits that everybody else uses so it all comes down to craftmanship and originality and that can only be gained by thought and practice .
If you really like the blank ....look at it and figure out how it was made then try it your way

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by GaryMGg

Originally posted by sbell111

Originally posted by GaryMGg

I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my reading comprehension ability. ...

And Steve wrote this elsewhere when he first joined the IAP:

Originally posted by sbell111
... I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site emphasis added . ...

... To me, when you go to a big show and copy someone's idea for your shows you will see them again at the next big show and you will be in direct competition. ...

So, you're taking the position that you shouldn't take steps to improve your practices? You shouldn't learn from others that are doing things better?...

No, I'm taking the position that you ARE in direct competition with the other turner at a show you're both at, and I'm NOT taking a competitor's work and competing with him on it when he's present.
I would use the idea in a different venue wherein he isn't present because I don't see that as direct competition.

If I understand your post, you are stating that it's completely OK to learn from other people at a show, but at future shows, you'll have to remember to leave out certain items so that you are not in competition with that person on the chance that they are at the same future show? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by GaryMGg

Originally posted by sbell111
I don't understand where you are coming from. It appears that you are (purposely or not) mistating our posts. No one has taken the position that anyone should HAVE to write a tutorial.

Now I believe you've misread me. Perhaps I should've started with

I guess more than anything else, what's getting under my skin is the ubiquitous requests I see for tutorials wherein the poster seems to suggest it's an expectation rather than a gift someone presented

and then given the illustration about how much time is involved and that it's a present.
The tone I read into it was more one of expectation. It may not be what you intended to communicate; it may just be what I got out of it.

Be that as it may, I'm not alone in the feeling that lots of folks ask for a tutorial everytime they see something new to them. I've had several members, new and old, communicate to me about it -- and, not in a positive manner.

So what? We are all adults. We are still free to share or not share, either in the thread or in a tutorial.

Originally posted by GaryMGg
It's my opinion asking someone to write a tutorial puts them on the spot.
It's a lot of work and is something that should result from their choice only.

No one is making any effort to take anyone's choice away.

Originally posted by GaryMGg
The request for tutorials should come from Jeff and the moderators and should be done in private or as a general reminder to all of us. In the final analysis, the decision to write one should be a voluntary act attained without any coercion.

I'm sorry, but that is something I don't agree with. In order to further probe our difference in opinion, please explain the difference between these three posts:

• Wow! Nice pen. How did you make it?
• Wow! Nice pen. How about a tutorial?
• Help! I racked my brain without success and searched everywhere. Can someone explain how to XXX

 

[sbell111]

<I split this out into it's own post, since the forum software did something strage with the really long reply.>

Originally posted by GaryMGg
I believe it's fine to write one on anything that isn't someone else's work -- I expect we're in agreement on what's reasonably one's own idea to share and what isn't.

For instance, someone posts a gorgeous inlay cross similar to Eagle's. That person has clearly figured out what it takes to make the inlay and cross with exacting, repeatable accuracy. If they decided to write a tut., so be it. As a woodworker I know how it's done and I've discussed it with Eagle, thus I'll never ink it.

So basically, you are in complete agreement with me. It would have made a cleaner thread if you had just stated so rather than to pick arguments.

Originally posted by GaryMGg

Originally posted by sbell111]
...
Apparently, some members (who do not wish to learn from others, apparently) believe that these requests are not a compliment, but are some kind of insult. ...

That's childish.
I may hold an unpopular opinion regarding the requests for tutorials. I stand by my opinion. However, I'll let my post history speak for itself when it comes to sharing ideas, techniques, tools, and tips.

I'm childish, but you're trying to pick arguments with someone you actually agree with is not? Some would call that childish and trolling.

 

[broitblat]

Well... You never know what's going to generate a whole lot of discussion, do you?

All I can say is that I appreciate the designs and ideas I see here with whatever amount of detail folks are willing to share. When I see something I consider interesting, I may try and figure out how it was done. If there is a tutorial, I may or may not read/follow it because, for my personal entertainment, I consider figuring it out to be part of the fun.

Admittedly, there have been plenty of cases where I didn't manage to figure it out on my own (and even more where, even having figured it out, I wasn't able to execute the design satisfactorily), but that doesn't make me feel any less appreciation for the person that posted the picture(s) in the first place.

So thanks to everyone for thought provoking designs, techniques, and discussions!

-Barry

 

[sbell111]

Originally posted by GaryMGg

Originally posted by sbell111

Originally posted by GaryMGg

I don't get it. Perhaps I've lost my reading comprehension ability. ...

And Steve wrote this elsewhere when he first joined the IAP:

Originally posted by sbell111
... I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site emphasis added . ...

... To me, when you go to a big show and copy someone's idea for your shows you will see them again at the next big show and you will be in direct competition. ...

So, you're taking the position that you shouldn't take steps to improve your practices? You shouldn't learn from others that are doing things better?...

No, I'm taking the position that you ARE in direct competition with the other turner at a show you're both at, and I'm NOT taking a competitor's work and competing with him on it when he's present.
I would use the idea in a different venue wherein he isn't present because I don't see that as direct competition.

Originally posted by sbell111
BTW, a better place to discuss this would have been in the original thread, not off-topic in this one.

I think it's related.

Since you believe it to be related, you should have posted my statement in it's original context, rather than parsing it down until it lost all meaning.

Here's more of that same post:

Originally posted by sbell111
Regarding 'stolen ideas', if a person is concerned about that, they shouldn't post their work online. Personally, if I see that someone has made a cool pen, I'm going to think about how we could make something similar. If I figure it out and Cathy can make it, we'll sell the thing and not feel bad about it.

You see, I don't consider us to be in direct competition with any of the other participants on this site. If we go to a big show and notice that someone is selling a pen that we don't have or has a popular wood that we don't, I'm going to suggest to Cathy they we get on that bandwagon and I'm not going to feel a darn bit bad about it and I would totally expect anyone else to do the exact same thing.

Since you are so interested in that post, let's discuss it further.

1) I don't consider any other participants on this site to be in direct competition with us. - I'll stand by this statement. Your sales don't affect mine, in any way, and mine doesn't affect yours. In fact, I'll take this statement one step further. In general, I don't think of other pen makers at a show to be our direct competition. The way most people shop at a show, they will either buy or not when they get to your booth, but they will rarely come back to you once they pass you. (It happens, but not often.) Therefore, the crafter next to us selling scroll sawed chotchkies is more of a direct competitor to us than the pen maker across the way. My conversations with other pen turners at shows make me believe that my opinion on this is shared.

2) If we notice that someone is selling a pen style that we don't have or materials that we don't use, we might look into getting that style or material and we would have no guilt in doing so. - I'll stand by that one, also. Who wouldn't???