More casing pen questions

[pmpartain]

OK. I used a bullet for the nib instead of the one that came with the slimline kit. I drilled out the bottom or back of the bullet, and melted out the lead on the inside. The bullet polished up easily with Brasso after the meltdown. I know others drill the lead, but on a suggestion, I thought I'd get rid of the lead altogether. Now the question. The ink cartridge fits loosely in the hollow point hole in the bullet. Is this ok? The only other option I can think of using the no lead method is to fill the bullet with epoxy and drill again. I hate repeats.

This is a 300 win short mag. Antler is sanded to 600 and polished with HUT plastic polish. Finish is Shellwax. I like a little bark left on the antler. I say it adds character.

 

[its_virgil]

I think you have 3 options if the actual bullet is used. I assume you want to get rid of the lead because of health concerns. Here are the options as I see them. (1) leave the lead..the lead is actually inside of a copper jacket ...the lead will not be handled by the pen user.
(2) leave the lead..and do what I do and clear powder coat the bullet parts.
(3) remove the lead from the copper jacket and fill with resin or something similar and re drill. Sometimes doing a step twice is the price we pay to get things the way we want them. I have lots of the clead come out when drilling...I pull the lead plug out(not on purpose [] []) with the drill bit. I hate when that happens...now I must drill another one.

Maybe some others will have some other options....Good luck.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[pmpartain]

Thanks for the input. Your casing tutorial is very helpful. I got it from another message board some time ago. I also plan to try one of the arrow pens you wrote about as well. Have you heard of Barnes bullets? Solid brass bullets. I think there is at least one other brand of the same thing, but I haven't gotten the name yet.

 

[its_virgil]

Glad you like the turotials. They are fun to do, eapecially when I know they are being used. Haven't heard of the Barnes bullets, but I will take a look...thanks! The arrow pens make nice pens and really unique.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by pmpartain
<br />Thanks for the input. Your casing tutorial is very helpful. I got it from another message board some time ago. I also plan to try one of the arrow pens you wrote about as well. Have you heard of Barnes bullets? Solid brass bullets. I think there is at least one other brand of the same thing, but I haven't gotten the name yet.

 

[pmpartain]

A guy here at work does re-loading. He said he has some "match grade" holow points that have an extremely small hole in the tip. Said they are very accurate, but don't expand properly on impact. I'll let you know how that goes. If the hole is as small as he says, you could drill out the back, burn out the lead, and then you have the perfect pilot hole to enlarge for the ink cartridge.

 

[bonefish]

You don't need to drill out the back. Use the small opening in the point to start the correct size drill to make the refill fit. You might have to counter bore the rear for the refill to fit properly.

As far as the harmful effects of lead. First, the small amount in the bullet is not enough to cause any harm.

Back before OSHA or whoever determined that lead was harmful, I soldered and cast probably several tons of lead in manholes. I spliced telephone cables, and we used lead to cover the splices.

I have also case several five gallon cans of wheelweights to make lead bullets for revolvers, and I have loaded probably 25,000 shotgun shells with lead pellets.

During this time, I didn't take any protective precautions. I touched it and breathed the fumes. I had a blood test recently, and there is not a tract of lead in my system.

I do not advocate being careless with hazardous materials, and if I knew then what I know now, I would have taken precautions.

I am not the only one who worked in manholes and handled this much lead, and some of the workers handled much more than I did. I am talking about probably several hundred splicers, and I don't know of a single one who has experienced problems. The hazards of coming into contact with lead might be overrated.

The lead in paint, or that was formally in paint might be hazardous, because it being suspended in a liquid would be different than a solid piece of lead.

Bonefish

 

[gerryr]

The problem with lead arises when you ingest it. Ancient Rome used lead pipe for water, the lead would slough off in the water and people would drink it. The lead based paint that was used on kids' furniture was a problem because infants tend to put just about anything in their mouths and chew on it. Being in the presense of lead is not, by itself, dangerous.

 

[Sylvanite]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />The problem with lead arises when you ingest it. Ancient Rome used lead pipe for water, the lead would slough off in the water and people would drink it.

Lots of people talk about lead poisoning from Roman plumbing, but sadly, thats a myth. As others have already pointed out, elemental (metallic) lead is relatively harmless. It is quite stable and does not dissolve when ingested. Millions of people have handled lead (or even been shot with it) without significant blood lead levels.

The real problem is with lead <b>salts</b>. Lead salts are water soluble and will enter the bloodstream when ingested. If ancient Romans suffered brain damage from lead, it was because they used lead acetate (aka "sugar of lead") as a sweetener. The amount of lead romans drank from lead pipes was negligible compared to the amount of lead acetate they spread on pastries. Likewise, the danger of lead paint is that it contains sweet tasting lead salts and children like to chew the flakes. High blood lead levels are much more hazardous to children than adults, because of the developmental problems it creates.

Does anybody here remember leaded gasoline? If so, you've already breathed much more lead than you'll ever come into contact with from handling a bullet (especially a copper jacketed one).

If you're still concerned, though, you can (as pointed out earlier) use a Barnes "Copper Solid" bullet which is, oddly enough, swaged from solid copper.

One of my recent experiments used a Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet in 243 Winchester. Nosler Ballistic Tips have a hollow point with a pointed plastic insert that supposedly aids terminal ballistics. I left the plastic tip in and made a PDA stylus pen out of it. Nosler color-codes the plastic based on caliber, and I used a matching wood to create my "purpleheart purple point pda pen" (try saying that five times fast, lol).

Regards,
Eric

 

[pmpartain]

Lead in the body can't be good. Can you get enough from a pen? I'm no expert, but I'd say probably not. (You'd really have to enjoy chewing on brass. []) However it is a pain in the rump to drill, and tricky to get the slug drilled straight. Melting the lead out of that hollowpoint was a snap, and if I can fix the hole size problem, I can't see an easier way to prep a slug for use in a pen.

 

[meshel]

Beautiful pen! I like the idea... very warlike - would probably sell well in Israel (where I live), and especialy to turists, so I'm obviously interested...

How do you take care of the other harmfull elements of the bullet? (I mean the gun powder and the explosive end point that starts the gun powder).

 

[bonefish]

Meshel:

It is best to use a cartridge case that has already been fired. That way you don't have to worry with the powder and explosive mix in the primer.

For the tip, an unfired bullet is used, after it is drilled out. There is no explosive in the bullet.

The second sentence is not 100 percent correct. Some military ammunition uses tracer bullets and also explosive bullets. In Israel,
this type of bullet might be plentiful. These bullets are usually color coded on the tip.

If you are not familiar with the different types of bullets, my advise is to ask someone who does know.

Bonefish

 

[Sylvanite]

It is best to use a cartridge case that has already been fired. That way you don't have to worry with the powder and explosive mix in the primer.

Good advice! If you have the right tools (bullet puller, deprimer, etc.) and know what you're doing, you can safely disassemble live ammunition. Under no circumstances should you try drilling into an unfired primer!

Some military ammunition uses tracer bullets and also explosive bullets. In Israel, this type of bullet might be plentiful. These bullets are usually color coded on the tip.

If you are not familiar with the different types of bullets, my advise is to ask someone who does know.

Israel uses NATO spec ammunition (actually they make quite a bit of it). If you're looking for Israeli ammuntion, look for the headstamp TZZ (for military ammo) or IMI (for export and civilian use).

NATO ammo has a color-coded tip (just paint, so it does flake off and will probably not survive much handling, nor polishing - and probably not melting the core out).

Green Tip - steel penetrator core. You'll have difficulty drilling through it.

Red Tip - tracer. This bullet contains phosphorus in the base. Don't try to drill into it! It may ignite.

Black Tip - explosive. The tip contains an explosive compound. Again, don't try drilling into it.

It's much easier to drill into the tip of a hollow-point bullet anyway. That way you have something to guide the drill bit, rather than a point for it to skate off of. Expanding bullets (most hollowpoints) are banned by the Geneva Convention so you won't see any in most milspec ammo. I'd recommend a hollow-point hunting or target bullet. They are as readily available and you can always dip the tip in green laquer if you really want.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Sylvanite]

Originally posted by pmpartain
<br /> Melting the lead out of that hollowpoint was a snap, and if I can fix the hole size problem, I can't see an easier way to prep a slug for use in a pen.

Out of curiousity, how did you go about melting the lead out? What did you use to hold the bullet; what was your heat source; how did you contain the molten lead; and what safety precautions did you take (clothing, eyewear, ventilation, etc.)?

My concern is that melting the lead may well be more hazardous than drilling. As a bullet caster, I take lots of precautions. I'd hate to see someone injured from mishandling molten lead.

Also, I'm not sure that the copper jacket alone would be strong enough to stand up to use as a pen nib. I don't think it would hold a crimp (i.e. it would need to be glued in place). I worry about how much lateral support the refill needs. And, I kind of like the heft and balance that the bullet core yields. That's why I personally lean towards drilling over evacuation. Use whatever works for you, though.

Regards,
Eric

 

[pmpartain]

Well I drilled out the back end of the slug. Grab on to it with some long pliers. Take propane torch to the slug and about 15 seconds later the lead falls out. I wore a face shield and gloves, but the flame never got close to me. I let the molten lead fall onto some tin foil. That's about it. The first slug was pressed too firmly into the casing and deformed. I removed it by knocking it out with a rod through the drilled out primer end. Made the second tip and pressed it in. Seemed to hold fine in the casing. The casing I used was new, not fired. I bought casings from a re-loading supplier with no primers in the casing. This guy at work brought me some new slugs today. One is a match grade with a boat tail. I plan to apply a little glue to the boat tail before pressing in. The other is a ballistic tip coated in lubbolox. I think I spelled that right. Very dark gray color. Should look good with black titanium parts.

 

[Sylvanite]

Lead alloys melt at 700+ degrees Farenheit, so be careful about the splatters. "Ballistic Tip" is a Nosler trademark which means that the bullet has a pointed plastic tip shoved into a hollow-point. If that's what you've got, be sure to remove the tip before taking a torch to it. Lubalox is a dark oxide coating similar to molybdenum. I suspect it will stand up to heat but take care not to scratch it. I think you're right that it will look good with black Ti. When gluing the boattail, you might want to apply the glue to the inside of the case neck rather than to the bullet. There's less chance of some squeezing out that way.

Good luck,
Eric

 

[bonefish]

Eric:
You mentioned the hazards of casting.

In your last post you said that lead melts at about 700 degrees F.

This is about right, considering what might be mixed in with scrap lead.

What is really dangerous is the fumes from molten lead when it gets hot enough to vaporize. If I remember correctly, lead vaporizes at about 1500 degrees. I have read that these fumes are deadly poisonious, but a bullet caster or plumber (or cable splicer) would have no reason to get lead this hot, unless you used a gas furnace and went off and left it running.

Bonefish

 

[bonefish]

I think a better choice for a bullet tip would be to ask Craft Supplies if they can or will make the bullet tips they use on their silver bullet pen available.

What would be even nicer would be if they would offer these tips in a variety of sizes, to fit different size tubes.

Bonefish

 

[pmpartain]

I wasn't sure how the plastic tip was attached to the bullet. I had originally planned to drill from the back side out through the end of the tip on the lathe. If it is simply glued into a hollow point slug then that might not work. I wasn't sure how the lubalox would hold up to heat, so I wasn't planning to melt the lead out of that one. On the bullets that I have removed the lead, I've been pertty easy on the heat. Very little buffing required to clean up the brass. The lead comes out about the consistency of stiff peanut butter. I keep it as close to the tin foil as possible when the lead starts to come out, so there's not a lot of splatter. Never hurts to be safe though!

 

[KenV]

The Barnes bullets hold in a collet very nicely. They are not hollow pointed, but a #2 center drill will start the hole nicely. The drill bit combination is a little different if you are using a parker vs a cross pen refill.

The smaller barnes bullets are brass (yellow colored). I have 0.224 and 0.308 in that color. The 0.338 are copper shaded (more red) in color.

I spent much of the last few years with hasmat cleanup of lead in soils. Ingestion is of issue and is a function of exposure. We were using the industrial exposure of 1000 mg/kg for exposure of 8 hour per day year around. The cleanup level for residential occupancy is based on children of 0 to 6 years of age and is markedly lower.

Unless you chew it up and swallow, elemental lead is not a huge risk for occasional contact.

Nice looking pen.

 

[Sylvanite]

Originally posted by pmpartain
<br />I wasn't sure how the plastic tip was attached to the bullet. I had originally planned to drill from the back side out through the end of the tip on the lathe. If it is simply glued into a hollow point slug then that might not work.

Check out http://www.nosler.com/balltiphunt.html for a cross section picture of a Ballistic Tip hunting bullet and description of its construction. Oh, and there's a difference between the hunting version and the varmint version. I wouldn't recommend the varmint version for a pen because the jacket is much thinner at the hollow point. That may be desirable for rapid expansion, but not for writing.

Regards,
Eric

 

[laspringer]

pmpartain,
I also use a torch to melt the lead out of the bullets that are going to be put in pens. I drill the hole for the ink cartridge one drill bit size smaller than the nib from the kit and use a small round file to inlarge hole if needed. I also epoxy the bullet into the brass cartridge and have had no problems. I've used the cigar and slimline kit on the 300 short mag. Your pen looks fine to me.

Alan

 

[Sylvanite]

Originally posted by bonefish
<br />I think a better choice for a bullet tip would be to ask Craft Supplies if they can or will make the bullet tips they use on their silver bullet pen available.

What would be even nicer would be if they would offer these tips in a variety of sizes, to fit different size tubes.

Yes, that would certainly make things much easier. Then again, there's a certain satisfaction in making a cartridge pen that looks like a real cartridge from real components because - well, it is. I realize nobody else will care, but I enjoy knowing that my cartridge pen is within SAAMI specs. If you pulled out the transmission, it would actually fit in the chamber of a gun (must be the reloader in me).

Regards,
Eric

 

[Sylvanite]

Originally posted by bonefish
<br />In your last post you said that lead melts at about 700 degrees F.

This is about right, considering what might be mixed in with scrap lead.

What is really dangerous is the fumes from molten lead when it gets hot enough to vaporize. If I remember correctly, lead vaporizes at about 1500 degrees. I have read that these fumes are deadly poisonious, but a bullet caster or plumber (or cable splicer) would have no reason to get lead this hot, unless you used a gas furnace and went off and left it running.

Cast bullets are typically made from a mix of lead, tin, and antimony. These alloys melt at around 700 degrees F. Swaged bullets, and the core of jacketed bullets are usually made from nearly pure lead (much the same as the caulking lead that plumbers use). Pure lead melts at closer to 800 degrees.

You are correct that lead vapors are not a hazard in that temperature range. The fumes are not really dangerous unless the lead is contaminated with some other compound, such as arsenic (which somtimes occurs naturally in lead deposits) or cadmium (which is present in lead from car batteries). Never try to recover lead from batteries - leave that to the people with the correct industrial processes.

Burns are a much more likely danger. Don't get molten lead near water as it will vaporize water instantly, resulting in a shower of burning hot metal. Also be aware that lead disposal may be subject to government regulation. There are rumors that the EPA will eventually regulate lead bullets out of existence.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Sylvanite]

Originally posted by KenV
<br />
The Barnes bullets hold in a collet very nicely. They are not hollow pointed, but a #2 center drill will start the hole nicely.

Your solution is much more elegant than mine, lol. I just sand the the point down until the meplat is large enough for me to punch a guide dimple so the drill bit won't skate.

Regards,
Eric