Metal Rings Question

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Two parts really. I am designing a closed end pen which uses parts of a standard kit but will have a closed end cap and body. This will be a capped fountain pen design where the cap will not be reattached and of course there will be no twist mechanism. Pretty staightforward.

The first question is, where might I buy nice plated clips and rings, etc. The second question is assuming I can find clips and rings what do you guys think the best process would be to insert a ring between two ends of acrylic material. That is to say, imagine a closed end pen body and say a half inch in from the back there was a single sterling silver ring?

Would you just turn to a bushing the size of the ring and completely finish the barrel on either side of the ring then glue and clamp. Or would you attempt to buy solid rings, glue in a rougher stage and turn the ring down with the acrylic after gluing? And either way, what glue to you guys think is the best bet to assure it never becomes unstable in pretty much any environmental condition a pen might encounter?

Or...are there ring stock available seperately that have press fit type male parts much like all kits have now for typical center bands which make the whole process better.

Thanks in advance. It seem like every available kit has something that seems not quite right and/or cheap looking to me and I'm trying to come up with some more interesting designs that are more bespoke. My other projects have been like that so it is no surprise that my pen projects are already shaping up to steer more toward kitless or partiall kitless works...

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Anybody?

 

[leehljp]

For your second question of "That is to say, imagine a closed end pen body and say a half inch in from the back there was a single sterling silver ring?"

I will comment on "adding rings". I made my own out of brass sheets.

On the first pen -
http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/940/1_Best_pen.jpg

I turned the middle amboyna down to a millimeter or so larger than the final size, removed it from the lathe and added the brass ring or segment and the black/ebony at the same time, used epoxy and clamped. Then I turned everything to size and finished.

On this pen -
http://www.penturners.org/photos/images/940/1_30_Pieces_of_Silver.jpg

I drilled holes in full blanks, cut my segments with a squaring jig, added the nib end segment first. Glued it with epoxy and waited for it set and cure. Any excess glue was removed by putting it on the lathe and using a parting tool. When it was square and clean from glue, I added brass ring, wood segment (BOW), brass ring, bloodwood, brass ring, holly, brass ring, bloodwood.

Of course I measured meticulously each segment so that it came out right on the last piece with the tube. Then I took it all off, added glue and each layer/segment with 30 minute epoxy and clamped.

Then turned it all down to size.

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Of course if not for the rings you could just glue them all up square and turn them down, but in this case you are never cutting the ring material correct? But just using bushings and/or calipers at each step to make sure the end is the perfect size for each ring as you "build" it out?

So also, where did you find the rings and are they "hollow and shallow" so as to fit over the tube or did you have to drill them, or did you cut it from a solid brass dowel or something? To the same point, where might I find either sterling silver rings or ring stock? I suppose I would even be interested in finding something and then having a machine shop locally cut ,me up some various sized rings for a pretty much endless future supply. I wouldn't use the brass probably myself. Any ideas?

 

[BRobbins629]

There are 3 ways I have seen custom silver bands incorporated into pens.

1) You can try to buy a silver ring, but typically the selection is pretty slim as a centerband would be a very small ring size. You could make tenons on either side to fit in the ring or try to find a tube size that just fits. Or take a jewelry class and then you can cast your own from wax models.

2) You can segment the blank with silver sheet. Silver is not that difficult to turn.

3) You can buy thin wall silver tubing with an inner diameter just slightly larger than the pen final diameter, cut rings out of the tube and swage them on, actually compressing the metal into a groove. Requires some metal working knowledge, but that is how many of the commercial pens are done.

Sterling clips can and have been fabricated from sterling sheet or cast from wax models. BGray recently posted one in show off your pens. There are a few others in my album.

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

If the ring cut from a tube was round and glued into the center of the blank I would think just turning the blank down to it would work fine - just like turning a blank down to a bushing really. By that method, it seems like it really wouldn't even matter if the ring was even glued absolutely dead on center as it would work out perfect not matter what as long as the blank was larger than the ring before gluing, no?

Siz-wise, I'm thinking like in terms of an accent ring at the end of the barrel on like a Delta Capri pen or the like. But from what I gather, there is no real place to buy varied sized silver rings except ones made as jewelry?

Also, is there a source for buying just rhodium plated clips? And what would be the best way to install a free floting clip into a closed end acrylic cap?

Thanks in advance to all of you. I'm new to the forum but you all have been very helpful. Much appreciated!

 

[BRobbins629]

See comments in red

If the ring cut from a tube was round and glued into the center of the blank I would think just turning the blank down to it would work fine - just like turning a blank down to a bushing really. By that method, it seems like it really wouldn't even matter if the ring was even glued absolutely dead on center as it would work out perfect not matter what as long as the blank was larger than the ring before gluing, no? One test is worth a thousand opinions - try it.

Siz-wise, I'm thinking like in terms of an accent ring at the end of the barrel on like a Delta Capri pen or the like. But from what I gather, there is no real place to buy varied sized silver rings except ones made as jewelry? Jewelry are only ones I've seen unless you salvage from old pens. You can buy silver tube, but you will have to slice it.

Also, is there a source for buying just rhodium plated clips? And what would be the best way to install a free floting clip into a closed end acrylic cap? Most of the ones I have seen, people are taking kit clips and/or buying bulk clips similar to kits and having them plated. There are many methods to attach a clip depending on the design of the clip and cap. One is to make a slot in the cap and screw it to the top of the cap from the inside. When you get to the stage of designing your own pens, you should experiment and come up with your own technique. Or get some old vintage pens - there is no one technique.

Thanks in advance to all of you. I'm new to the forum but you all have been very helpful. Much appreciated!

 

[Texatdurango]

Here are some thoughts...

I have used silver washers for accent bands, silver tubes for center bands as well as accent bands. You can purchase all the silver you would need from: http://www.metalliferous.com/silver.php

I have also fabricated bands from PMC silver with good results.

The first photo below shows four caps, numbers 1, 2, and 4 are fine silver tubing that was swedged into very thin grooves cut into the cap. Number 3 is PMC silver. The second photo shows a silver accent ring made from a fine silver washer.

You have to think outside the box rather than "where can I buy accent rings or centerbands for ink pens" You're fabricating now so think in terms of raw material and you'll find what you need.

Clips are another story. Silver is too soft and not "springy" enough for clips and as stated above, casting is an alternative. I found that I can make clips from titanium which is very strong and springy and when polished it shines up nicely, mid way between polished stainless steel and silver. I now make centerbands from titanium as well and accent rings can be fabricated as well from sheet stock.

Titanium is hard though, don't expect to fabricate from sheet stock then chuck it up and trim it with a skew! Again, think outside the box and have fun, the hunt and fabrication is rewarding.

If you haven't already done so, have a look around the "advanced pen making" forum. Lots of good information and ideas there, including a few tidbits I posted about using silver, both PMC and fine silver.

 

[leehljp]

As for me in the pen examples that I linked to: "I made my own out of brass sheets."

but in this case you are never cutting the ring material correct?
I am cutting the ring material. It is turned down with the blank, all as one unit.

I drilled repeated holes in brass sheets with the same size bit that I use to drill the blank for a specific pen. Then I take some metal shears and cut the "rings out. Tap with a hammer to flatten them and use them. They are NOT perfectly round by any means, but the center holes are. I turn the rings down with the blanks, after it is all glued together.

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Thanks. I went and found the washers - those look fine. I don't quite understand the dimension though. It seems like they are quoting the circumference of the washer and they are all one thickness which they don't say? Also, how did you attach the washer? It seems like there is enough "meat" on the edges to just epoxy and clamp without having to cut a tenon into the blank and sleeve them. Please advise on these two items if you would. The price seems right as well.

I also just found their section with sterling tubing. I only need two rings, one for the cap and one for the barrel so I think I will just commit to some sizes for that pen design and have them cut them for me. How does the tubing cut and with what - I mean to final size? Or do you think prepping them a bit over size is best and then turn them down? How does it turn with standard skew tooling? Anyway, it is probably best to bring the tube to a local CNC shop and have them do the final prep on the tube and cut 1/8" rings or whatever I'm thinking. How does it sand - I mean with MM down to 12k, etc.? Finish? The pen design for these rings are all acrylic and tru-stone so the finish method would normally be MM and one step PP. Any other finish trappings I should be concerned about?
.

Here are some thoughts...

I have used silver washers for accent bands, silver tubes for center bands as well as accent bands. You can purchase all the silver you would need from: http://www.metalliferous.com/silver.php

I have also fabricated bands from PMC silver with good results.

The first photo below shows four caps, numbers 1, 2, and 4 are fine silver tubing that was swedged into very thin grooves cut into the cap. Number 3 is PMC silver. The second photo shows a silver accent ring made from a fine silver washer.

You have to think outside the box rather than "where can I buy accent rings or centerbands for ink pens" You're fabricating now so think in terms of raw material and you'll find what you need.

Clips are another story. Silver is too soft and not "springy" enough for clips and as stated above, casting is an alternative. I found that I can make clips from titanium which is very strong and springy and when polished it shines up nicely, mid way between polished stainless steel and silver. I now make centerbands from titanium as well and accent rings can be fabricated as well from sheet stock.

Titanium is hard though, don't expect to fabricate from sheet stock then chuck it up and trim it with a skew! Again, think outside the box and have fun, the hunt and fabrication is rewarding.

If you haven't already done so, have a look around the "advanced pen making" forum. Lots of good information and ideas there, including a few tidbits I posted about using silver, both PMC and fine silver.

 

[Texatdurango]

Thanks. I went and found the washers - those look fine. I don't quite understand the dimension though. It seems like they are quoting the circumference of the washer and they are all one thickness which they don't say? When a washer says .500 OD, .250 ID, that means the inside and outside diameters, and the webpage http://www.metalliferous.com/pdf/silver/SS%20Washers.pdf shows all washers are .025" thick.

Also, how did you attach the washer? It seems like there is enough "meat" on the edges to just epoxy and clamp without having to cut a tenon into the blank and sleeve them. No, once you cut the blank to size then drill the inside, there is not enough material to allow for just a glue joint. I use 7mm tubes as a splice.

I also just found their section with sterling tubing. I only need two rings, one for the cap and one for the barrel so I think I will just commit to some sizes for that pen design and have them cut them for me. How does the tubing cut and with what - I mean to final size? Or do you think prepping them a bit over size is best and then turn them down? How does it turn with standard skew tooling? Anyway, it is probably best to bring the tube to a local CNC shop and have them do the final prep on the tube and cut 1/8" rings or whatever I'm thinking. How does it sand - I mean with MM down to 12k, etc.? Finish? The pen design for these rings are all acrylic and tru-stone so the finish method would normally be MM and one step PP. Any other finish trappings I should be concerned about? It is my considered opinion that you are trying to bite off more than you can chew at this time. In another thread I read where you are just getting started and are shopping for a lathe, tools, etc. What I would seriously recommend is to back up, order a few kits and assemble them. Then, when you are comfortable with working with pens start modifying a little here and there.

Rob, in all sincerity, you really do need to spend some time reading through the Advanced pen making forum. Every question you just asked has already been covered, in some cases to great length in the advanced forum. As an example, I discussed cutting silver rings and bands, even had photos of the little saw I used and the modifications I made to it. I'm just too lazy to retype it all over again.

I think you'll get more out of reading the threads than just asking here.

And about micro mesh, sorry I can't help you there I resigned from the "MM thru 12k" club and no longer use it in my shop. 1200 grit silicone carbide is as high as I go on anything and that's rare, I usually stop at 1000 grit then buff.

...

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Rob, in all sincerity, you really do need to spend some time reading through the Advanced pen making forum. Every question you just asked has already been covered, in some cases to great length in the advanced forum. As an example, I discussed cutting silver rings and bands, even had photos of the little saw I used and the modifications I made to it. I'm just too lazy to retype it all over again.

I guess my questions were posted to the wrong subforum. In any case, I wouldn't want to give another artist carpel tunnel syndrome.

I guess being that I'm coming from another similar artform I don't think of finding a ring material and gluing it to be either advanced or specific to penmaking. Anyway, my apologies for any mistep on my part by asking instead of searching first. I tend to learn by doing though and as such interacting with other artists on the web is something new to me.

I'm shopping for a micro lathe and tools because I'm building a new shop. I also have made it clear I am new to pens specifically, but not to this level of craft. In fact, just the opposite. My background is in craft of projects of far greater difficulty than adding a sterling ring or clip to an acrylic dowel. Your "considered opinion" might be more easily digested if I were asking say, details on how to apply a 400 sectioned cloisonne' enamel design in thirty colors to my first pen. But a 1/4" ring gluing project? Surely none of us here should feel this is beyond our reach, despite never having done it before if we bring skills with us. I also never said I hadn't made pens before, I said I was shopping for tools to build a new shop so I think your assumption there might be an impass and if that is the assumption I suppose I can see why you might think I might not be "ready for ringwork". But now that you know otherwise...

Why don't you give me the ring specific link you authored. I would be interested to check it out.

 

[Texatdurango]

......My background is in craft of projects of far greater difficulty than adding a sterling ring or clip to an acrylic dowel. Your "considered opinion" might be more easily digested if I were asking say, details on how to apply a 400 sectioned cloisonne' enamel design in thirty colors to my first pen. But a 1/4" ring gluing project? .....

My mistake, judging from the basic questions you were asking I was thrown off track. Had I known I was in the presence of a master craftsman I would have kept my simple ideas to myself.

I hope you post photos of your creations, I will be looking forward to seeing your work and I will no doubt be the one with the "how to" questions.

 

[leehljp]

In the first post: The first question is, where might I buy nice plated clips and rings, etc.

Later Post: My background is in craft of projects of far greater difficulty than adding a sterling ring or clip to an acrylic dowel.

The first statement and first post wording leads to a conclusion that a person is "looking" for rings or even how to do or make rings. That first question of yours is a fairly common newbie question here. The second post does state your experience. Most people with this kind of experience usually know the first part.

We are here to help one another. We don't know each new person's background to this forum, and it must be assumed that they are beginners. Your opening question leads in that direction and sounds very similar to many beginner's statements - i.e. lots of information given but not knowing vendors, where to buy, how to make, which most experienced people do know. IF you had stated that you are an experienced craftsman with far more difficulty than basic pen making, we would have taken a different track in answering.

Some people (experienced) get irritated when treated like beginners; and beginners get irritated when given technical mumbo jumbo answers. When a master craftsman asks a beginner question without clarification - how do you expect us to answer? We err on the side of helping the learner.

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Oh dear God, the sarcasm George. A master craftsman I am not, but a capable one for sure.

I have never done ringwork guys, so how else would I know where to buy or how to work them? I have never worked with anything metal - ever. Seems pretty clear to me.

Hank states it best and I was under the impression we were all here to help each other. Why some on the internet always seem to take the most innocent and basic statements and questions and build them into anything of significance is a subject of great amusement to me. I especially like when a guy makes a mistake of misinterperetation, is politely corrected, and then instead of sincerely apologizing continues the banter with posturing and sarcasm - to boot after the guy asks him again with total sincerty to give him the link with the great information defering to his knowledge.

Let's try this again, shall we George. I have never worked with metal. I want to learn enough about it to put a ring in a stinking pen. You, on the other hand know how to do this. You chastised me for asking too many questions and treated me like a beginner based on a misassumption. Your mistake, not mine, but no hard feelings. I also never said I was a master at anything. I said for someone with skills that it isn't a difficult task. It isn't. Trial and error. There can be only so many ways to do it. That said, I only even said that it couldn't be difficult mostly because I didn't appreciate you telling me to back off from such advanced things until I had more experience. I have 30 years of relevant experience, but again, not specifically with metal rings. So I ask you again, since you have done this before, would you be so kind as to post the link of your tutorial on installing silver rings?

If not, I understand and I'm sure I'll figure it out, but after all this I feel like I almost have to learn something from you to justify all this....

 

[Texatdurango]

.....Let's try this again, shall we ....

No, let's not! I don't need this nonsense.

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Some people (experienced) get irritated when treated like beginners; and beginners get irritated when given technical mumbo jumbo answers.

Right, which is why the best thing to do is not make any assumption as such. What purpose could it possibly serve to know or even care where anyone is on that scale other than to boost ones own self worth in some way? It is best to just say what you mean and tell what you know. If it is over a beginners head he will have to figure it out.

But clearly, given that most everyone seems to be building kit pens - at least most that I see posted in the galleries - a question about where to buy ring and clip stock isn't something a beginner would be interested in. I didn't after all ask where to buy sandpaper, or blanks or Baron kits. LOL. Even in my tool threads what did I say? I asked what lathe to buy from experiences on reliability because I am familiar with having tools fail. All in all I feel that my questions have been more than fair and very focused. And my new friend in Japan has epecially been most helpful with his answers in helping me set up for my new offshoot into the micro world. For that I am eternally grateful.

BTW guys, I have since found a great shop to cast a custom clip for me and thanks to you guys I think the sterling washer will be fine for the two rings, which I will sleeve to the brass tubing as suggested. I'm going to use the centerband and nib assembly from the Emperor fountain kit and do the barrel and cap as closed end in a custom celluloid I sourced in a few interesting colors. The custom clip and single ring on each side will be a nice touch. I also found a local jeweler who has licenced me a great little flat, square sterling mosaic piece for the top of the cap. All in all, it should be an interesting looking piece. Once I have made the first batch of those I'll have a sense more of more little details I'm sure. Once those have revealed themselves, I'll get into the next task which seems a bit daunting I must say - tapping the acrylic and making/tapping a custom centerband. Now that seems tough to me!

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

No, let's not! I don't need this nonsense.

Nice, George. Way to rise above your mistake and act the adult. You must feel so proud.

Oh well, I tried...

 

[btboone]

I have limited experience with rings (in silver), but it would probably work well to start with solid silver bar and drill out the inside to the exact inner diameter and turn the outer diameter to match your pen. It can have a lead in type funneling effect at the bottom or you could add your own flair there. Some silvers are definitely harder than others. I've heard that Argentium silver is the stuff to use. I will be looking to use some in an upcoming design.

 

[Rob Eberhard Young]

Thanks. Anyone know how sterling turns as a unit. I have never turned metal before and I'm curious how challenging it is to turn sterling - especially with acrylic on either side with a standard skew tool.

 

[btboone]

When there are silver inlays in my rings, I am able to easily turn off the excess with a hand held tool. It's very easy as far as metals go. Easier than aluminum I'd say.