Loose clip issue

[Parson]

Well, this is my week to post issues with pens and seek advice from the collective wisdom of the IAP!

I've noticed that some of the pens I've made for folks have clips that grow loose and turn around the cap.

I know I can epoxy in the top part of the cap and keep it in place... but I'd rather not do this because it makes disassembly nearly impossible.

Is there a way to bond the clip ring to the cap metal without making a mess?

 

[PenMan1]

Two words: Red Loctite.

It keeps the clip and clip cap from coming loose (especially on Jr Gents). If the pen should ever need to be disassembled, it can be done without destroying the hardware.

 

[Parson]

Tell me, how do you apply the red locktite? Between the clip ring and the cap or just inside the brass tube?

 

[ed4copies]

This brings up a philosophical question that has intrigued me in pen-making: Why are we so determined to make our pens in a manner that allows disassembly???

Particularly in a case like this, where the effort to allow for DISassembly renders the finished product (pen) less reliable, because we KNOW the clip will become loose in a significant percentage.

How about, we make the pens and use adhesive where necessary so that we drastically REDUCE the NUMBER of pens that NEED DISassembly!!!

This is not meant to be a "knock" on Parson--it is a topic I have discussed with many penmakers on the phone and, usually, we have never considered it before.

As Andy says----use Loctite---it will make your pens MORE RELIABLE!!! Isn't that the goal???

 

[ed4copies]

Tell me, how do you apply the red locktite? Between the clip ring and the cap or just inside the brass tube?

Put glue in the tube, spread with a Q-tip or toothpick, then insert the clip and "finial holder gizmo". IF there is "slop", hold in place with a clamp for a couple hours to insure it bonds in the "tight" position.

 

[Parson]

Ed, I see two reasons for providing for disassembly. The first is for repairing something I didn't do right in the first place, and you make a great point about getting it right the first time and eliminating this need.

HOWEVER, I've already had two customers bring me their beat up pens with cracked tops or bottom sections, asking me to repair the pen without replacing a $35 kit and basically making another pen anew that looked like the old pen before it was bashed up,.

In this case, it would be great to be able to disassemble a pen for a customer and not charge them for a whole new pen because that's what it would require.

 

[ed4copies]

I did the same thing---so this is a conversation, not a debate.

Why do we allow for the "rebuilding"?

The customer mishandled his pen. He knows what it cost him and that was not significant enough TO HIM to compel him to take care of the pen. So, sell him a MORE EXPENSIVE pen!! At some point, you will find the level that he considers "dear" enough to care for it.

As I say, this is NOT what I did when I was selling pens.

But I put far MORE hours into FIXING than a new pen would have cost. And, after a year or two of using the same pen, the customer can use a "change of scenery" in his pocket.

Just a FWIW!!

Remember, if you have sold 200 pens and one comes back for "rebuilding", you have 199 pens that are not as good as they could be, where your reputation could suffer. All so you can help the ONE guy save $50. Is it a good equation---for you???

 

[PenMan1]

Randall:
I use 320 grit sand paper around the bottom of the clip holder.
Additionally, I run the sandpaper once around the inside ring of the clip.
Then, I use the 320 on a dowel to rough up the top 1/2 inch of the interior top tube.

Then I apply the Loctite with an old toothbrush. The light "scuffin with the 320 gives the threadlock a little more "tooth". This has worked well for me.

I have a friend that uses pipe joint compound! It's a little messy for me, but he swears by it.

 

[tomas]

Call me old fashioned...I just use a very small drop of CA. I may have to try the locktite, though. Also, I would think that disassembling a pen for repair would be way too time consuming and I don't think I would do it for free.

Tomas

 

[ed4copies]

Hi Tomas!!

We usually do not use CA on metal parts because it "off-gasses" and can leave your metal parts with a white film. Not attractive when you take them out at a show and did not know they had the film.

It comes off, usually, but using some other adhesive avoids the film.

 

[tomas]

Hi Tomas!!

We usually do not use CA on metal parts because it "off-gasses" and can leave your metal parts with a white film. Not attractive when you take them out at a show and did not know they had the film.

It comes off, usually, but using some other adhesive avoids the film.

Interesting...I have never noticed it, but then my small drop is usually inside the tube. It sounds like the locktite might be a little more foregiving, as well. I have found the loose clip issue mostly on slimlines.

Tomas

 

[ed4copies]

If you have used CA, then assembled the cap to the rest of the slimline, remove a couple caps, like you are going to replace the refill.

I will be VERY surprised if you don't find a white film on the refill and the transmission of your pens.

This is the film your customers would see the first time they change the refill----NOT a GOOD thing!!

 

[RussFromNH]

I know I am a newbie, but I do use thick CA on my cap and clip. I have not sold a pen yet so I don't have any customers other then family.



However, My first and favorite pen was in tough shape. I put in a little nail polish remover and was able to disassemble quite easily. I put it back on the lathe, sealed the cracks with CA, sanded, waxed, sealed and glued it back together. I was careful to not let the acetone get to the brass tube.



I have it on me and I just took off the cap to check for a film, I don't see any on the inside at all... I just did this last week, does the film take time to develop? I have seen that before on other plastic items in the past.

 

[PenMan1]

Call me old fashioned...I just use a very small drop of CA. I may have to try the locktite, though. Also, I would think that disassembling a pen for repair would be way too time consuming and I don't think I would do it for free.

Tomas

At one point I also used CA. Then I noticed that my gold TN caps started turning black or ghostly white after about a month of assembly. The rhodium finishes would actually take on a crinkled appearance.

When I changed from CA to Loctite, that quit happening.

 

[renowb]

Call me old fashioned...I just use a very small drop of CA. I may have to try the locktite, though. Also, I would think that disassembling a pen for repair would be way too time consuming and I don't think I would do it for free.

Tomas

At one point I also used CA. Then I noticed that my gold TN caps started turning black or ghostly white after about a month of assembly. The rhodium finishes would actually take on a crinkled appearance.

When I changed from CA to Loctite, that quit happening.

Andy, Is there a number for the red loctite? And where do you get it?

 

[ed4copies]

and do you remember what you pay for it, Andy.

I have purchased some, but I don't think its a great price, so I have not made it available to others.

Any info may be helpful.

 

[PenMan1]

and do you remember what you pay for it, Andy.

I have purchased some, but I don't think its a great price, so I have not made it available to others.

Any info may be helpful.

I buy it at Bumper to Bumper auto supply. They usually have a 3 ounce bottle for $10. At Home Depot and Lowes the small little tube is $6.

If the auto supply store doesn't have the Loctite brand, I have used the Permatex red thread sealant without issues.

 

[PenMan1]

Bill:
I sure there is a number for it, but I can't find it (eye doctor appointment , tomorrow).

In Home Depost it is in the paint department next to the Gorilla Glue, CA, Contact Cement, etc. It is just listed as Loctite Permanent Thread Sealer - Red. The blue Loctite also works.

 

[ed4copies]

Have you tried the one sold by Harbor Freight?

I JUST bought some at the new store in town--it was only like $3 bucks (IIRC) and it was bigger than the 271 Loctite I bought.

I just don't make pens often enough to "test" it.

Anyone????

 

[PenMan1]

Have you tried the one sold by Harbor Freight?

I JUST bought some at the new store in town--it was only like $3 bucks (IIRC) and it was bigger than the 271 Loctite I bought.

I just don't make pens often enough to "test" it.

Anyone????

YOU just had to go and bring up HF, didn't you, Ed:biggrin:.
You should know me well enough by now to know that I don't buy China products, if ANYONE else makes the product.

I must admit, avoiding Chinese products is getting harder and harder. We went furniture shopping. If you eliminated everything in that VERY HIGH END furniture store that came from China, the only thing left would be the light bulbs and that FINE CARPET made in Dalton, GA!

Broke my heart! I just opened up my new Milwaukee right angle drill, very proud of myself for "buying American". When I flipped over the charging base to remove the cord, there in big letters, like they are proud of it, "made in China".

 

[ed4copies]

Well Andy, I went to look at the Loctite, just to see where it was made. To my AMAZEMENT, it says:"Made/printed in USA"!!!

Loctite it is!!!
I figured they were all made off-shore!!

THANKS!!

 

[PenMan1]

And....Just for the record, Loctite 243 is Blue, 263 is Red. Blue=semi-permanent. Red=permanent. Red sometimes means using a hair dryer to loosen it.

271 is not for OEM, aftermarket automotive. It works just fine, but 263 is better quality, aviation grade and usually costs less, here? Go figure?

263 fights corroision and eliminates leaks. We used it in the boating industry, and it was easy to "approaite". So, that is how I found it. It also withstands vibration much better. None of that is important in fountain pens, except LEAK PREVENTION, but when I rebuild a boat, PWC or motorcycle....I want 263! so why steal....I mean buy...both?

 

[ed4copies]

As I read the info from Loctite, the 271 is permanent as well, called "thread lock" and will "give" at high heat.

All the Loctite products are pricey, so I will sure look at those you cite as well, Andy. And Thanks again for the feedback!!

 

[PenMan1]

As I read the info from Loctite, the 271 is permanent as well, called "thread lock" and will "give" at high heat.

All the Loctite products are pricey, so I will sure look at those you cite as well, Andy. And Thanks again for the feedback!!

The biggest difference is specs, Ed. In boating, automotive, etc, working on OEM equipment, repair manuals call for 263 in most applications (vibration). It usually COSTS LESS and comes in bigger containers.

That might be your solution. Buy 263 by the gallon, resell in 2 oz packages as "Eds secret pen stuff"

 

[ed4copies]

As I read the info from Loctite, the 271 is permanent as well, called "thread lock" and will "give" at high heat.

All the Loctite products are pricey, so I will sure look at those you cite as well, Andy. And Thanks again for the feedback!!

The biggest difference is specs, Ed. In boating, automotive, etc, working on OEM equipment, repair manuals call for 263 in most applications (vibration). It usually COSTS LESS and comes in bigger containers.

That might be your solution. Buy 263 by the gallon, resell in 2 oz packages as "Eds secret pen stuff"

Hey Andy,

I'll bet you didn't know they charge nine cents to put a label on a pen blank, did you??? So, I'm afraid all of my time is used up, labeling blanks!!!

So, if I buy any additional "glue products", they will be in "resellable" packaging!!!

THANKS for the help, though!!

 

[PenMan1]

So>>>>You'd buy PenMan's Secret Pen Stuff in 2 oz packages IF the price were right?

 

[ed4copies]

DON'T charge me nine cents for a label!!!!!

 

[Parson]

Why do we allow for the "rebuilding"? ...All so you can help the ONE guy save $50. Is it a good equation---for you???

Ed, when a customer comes to me with a worn out or poorly treated pen and asks me to repair it, I do so for a price that covers my time and materials from beginning to end or offer to make him a new one for the full retail amount if he's worn the thing out and it's a cheaper route.

Most of the time though, what's coming back for repair is defects in my original work—and I'll do whatever it takes to make that right. It's only happened twice now, but I'm learning valuable lessons about CA glue:

1. Don't glue a tube into a closed ended portion of a pen with CA glue. It will work loose sooner or later.

2. Don't coat casein with the stuff.

I'm thinking I'm going to use 5 minute epoxy for gluing tubes in from now on. Took me a lot longer than many of you guys to learn this and it was learned the hard way, but I learned it!

 

[ed4copies]

Randall,

This one statement: Most of the time though, what's coming back for repair is defects in my original work—and I'll do whatever it takes to make that right. It's only happened twice now, but I'm learning valuable lessons about CA glue:

says a whole world about YOU!! Congratulations and I could NOT agree with you more.

But it also says you are willing to admit there are flaws in your work----you will go far and be successful as long as you are willing to say, "I goofed, I'll make it right"!!

In fact you don't even HAVE to SAY you goofed, just think it and make it right!!

Thanks!! You will do well!!

 

[leestoresund]

You can dissolve Loctite with acetone. Just let a drop run down the tube.

Lee

 

[Rob73]

Good thread - I didn't' even think about loctite. I should have some in the shop already.

I have a teacher friend of mine that ever since I gave him a pen he is addicted to them. I have to make him cheap slimlines as he usually gets half of the damn pens I make him stolen at work. (what do I need to do put a gps chip in pens to track down pen thieves) However, the first one I made him he never lets out of his sight. He's having this cap issue and I've tried to ca in, epoxy and he still comes back with it loose.

The last time I checked the pen out it actually looked like the pen tube at the top was expanded. I would assume from him beating on the thing like I"ve seen him do.. Puts cap on then beats on the table with it attempting to 'tighten' it back up... /sigh teachers...

Now I'm going to make him a new one since the tube is all messed up and I'll try loctite on it. He gets the cap loose on this one don't know what to try next.

 

[titan2]

Good thread - I didn't' even think about loctite. I should have some in the shop already.

I have a teacher friend of mine that ever since I gave him a pen he is addicted to them. I have to make him cheap slimlines as he usually gets half of the damn pens I make him stolen at work. (what do I need to do put a gps chip in pens to track down pen thieves) However, the first one I made him he never lets out of his sight. He's having this cap issue and I've tried to ca in, epoxy and he still comes back with it loose.

The last time I checked the pen out it actually looked like the pen tube at the top was expanded. I would assume from him beating on the thing like I"ve seen him do.. Puts cap on then beats on the table with it attempting to 'tighten' it back up... /sigh teachers...

Now I'm going to make him a new one since the tube is all messed up and I'll try loctite on it. He gets the cap loose on this one don't know what to try next.

Make his next one a 'Closed' end pen!


Barney

 

[Parson]

-you will go far and be successful as long as you are willing to say, "I goofed, I'll make it right"!!

So true. Not commonly heard enough today at all levels of business and government, but so true!