Loctite (?) Users

[Randy_]

I bought a tube of Loctite(?) about 6 months ago and put it away for future use. Well, the future is now and I could not find the darn thing for the life of me.​

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So I went back to the Autozone store and bought another tube in hopes that would trigger the reappearance of the original tube.:biggrin: It has not.......so far??

Anyway, in looking closely at the package, I see this product is actually a Permatex product and not made by Loctite after all. Discovering that, I went to the Loctite web site and see that all of their thread blockers come in little red containers and the different varieties are distinguished only by a number.......no more red, green and blue. Or maybe there never was?? Am I confusing the Permatex with the Loctite or did Loctite also used to distinguish their different varieties by color??

And finally, has anyone out there used both the Loctite and the Permatex and if so do you have an opinion as to which is better or are they about the same?? TIA.​

 

[fritz64]

loctite for nuts and bolts . permatex for gaskets.fritz64

 

[homerjatmoes]

Permatex does make thread locker , blue for medium strength and red for high strength, just like loctite.

Loctite has always used a three digit number to differentiate the different types, but most users refer to it by the color.

You will be fine using the Permatex product, I've used both.

By the way Loctite numbering system is as follows:

222 - Pink for small screws under 1/4"
242 - Blue for medium size screws 1/4" to 3/4"
262 - larger screws or high strength up to 3/4"

These are the "main" numbers there a lot more for different applications, packaging, and results.

 

[Randy_]

Thanks, Mark. I was hoping to hear something like that.​

Using one drop at a time for the occasional recalcitrant pen means that a tube of thread locker will hang around for quite a while after it has been opened. Do you have any idea of how long the stuff remains usable after the tube is opened? Should I keep it if the fridge??​

 

[rherrell]

I use the Permatex Thread Locker Gel. I used to use the liquid Loctite in the little blue tubes but when I ran out I found the gel and boy, am I glad I did! No more running and dripping and you can use just a tiny amout on a toothpick with good control. The gel tube is ALOT bigger and for $10 I'll bet it lasts me several years.
As for the difference between the two brands, I can't tell the difference.

 

[Jim15]

While we are discussing Loctite I've been wondering if it will work on smooth pieces like a pressed in finial or is just for threaded parts? Thanks.

 

[rherrell]

That's what I use it for Jim. It's not permanent like CA or epoxy so if you need to disassemble the pen you can. However, I wouldn't use it on LOOSE fitting parts, use epoxy for that. It's more of an insurance policy that makes me feel confident that they won't fall apart.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Red Loctite is my last resort to glue in the clip finials in Barons. CA and Epoxy fail over time, the Loctite seems to hold up quite good. Just make sure to remove all residue inside the cap. I don't know why, but for quite some time all the finial caps of the Baron do not lock the clip in anymore, and they start twisting very fast or the cap finial even comes out. Maybe the tube size was changed.

 

[jttheclockman]

This is good info. I have noticed the same thing happening on the slimlines. The clip seems to twist very easily especially on acrylics and glossy materials like deer antler. Then when I take the cap off to put a drop of CA on the clip I need to put a drop of CA on the cap because it never fits as tight as it first did. I may have to start using one of these products as a safety measure as mentioned. I read on another forum that some of the new slimlines are now coming through with the clip and cap as one piece. This maybe the reason for this and you may see other kits following. Just guessing here though. That would be ashame because some like to mix and match parts.

 

[arioux]

Hi,

I switch to gel locktite too. A lot easier to work with. I grab it with the tip of a toopick and just apply i where it's needed. Randy, locktite set in absence of air so unless you store it in a vacuum chamber, it won't dry on the shelf. That's why you have to make sure you remove any residue inside the parts because it will still be sticky after a long time.

 

[Jim15]

Thanks for the answers to my question.

 

[Randy_]

While we are discussing Loctite I've been wondering if it will work on smooth pieces like a pressed in finial or is just for threaded parts? Thanks.

Lots of people have used the thread locker successfully so I guess it is OK. I looked through the Permatex web site and they have several compounds specifically designed for press fit applications. (Loctite may have similar concoctions?) The one that appears to be correct for our pen work is the Permatex® Bearing Mount for Close Fits. I don't know how difficult this stuff might be to find; but since I already have a tube (and maybe two:wink of the thread locker, I'll just use that.​

 

[Randy_]

.....locktite set in absence of air so unless you store it in a vacuum chamber, it won't dry on the shelf. That's why you have to make sure you remove any residue inside the parts because it will still be sticky after a long time.

Kinda makes me wonder why the stuff doesn't set up in the tube? Is there enough air in the tube to keep it from setting or is there some other factor involved?​

 

[Mudder]

Thanks, Mark. I was hoping to hear something like that.​

Using one drop at a time for the occasional recalcitrant pen means that a tube of thread locker will hang around for quite a while after it has been opened. Do you have any idea of how long the stuff remains usable after the tube is opened? Should I keep it if the fridge??​

The companies usually quote a shelf life of 12-18 months after manufacture for optimum strength. I have tested loctite and found that it loses up to 10% of it's strength at 2 years and at 10 years it still has about 50% strength. You don't neet to store in in the refrigerator but I would keep it out of temperatures above 120 degrees because that does accelerate the decomposition process. One other note about loctite you may not know, it floreses (glows) under a black light

 

[bstach]

Randy,

I have only turned for a little while, but I work for Henkel (Loctite) in their R&D department and can answer your question.

The threadlockers are known generally as anaerobics. They do not cure in the tubes as the plastic used to package the anaerobics are "breathable". This allows the liquid inside to have oxygen which inhibits the curing of the anaerobic to constantly exchange in and out of the liquid. To stretch a little, it is similar to how your lungs work. The packages are also flushe with oxygen before fillling and sealed with an oxygen headspace.

Now Loctite and Permatex anaerobics work in the same manner as they need two things to cure, first and foremost is the absence of oxygen, the second is active metal ions.

Metals that work well are Ferrous metals (Iron and Steel), and Yellow metals (copper, brass, bronze). It does not work very well on Stainless steel, exotic metals and coated metals. It will work on some aluminums (such as 6061 which has copper in it) but not pure Aluminum. These are generalities and there are a few exceptions here and there.

I hope that it answers your questions.

Brian

 

[thewishman]

I've often said I don't know much, but I know people who do. Thanks, Brian.

 

[JimB]

Wow Brian, great first post. Welcome. I'm in the Rochester, NY area. I go to Buffalo several times a month for business and never miss an opportuntiy to stop in Rockler.

 

[Randy_]

Interesting, Scott. Thanks.

 

[Randy_]

Well, Brian, that certainly answers my question. But you aren't going to get off that easy.​

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I mentioned earlier that Permatex had a product for non-threaded press fits. No doubt, Loctite has a similar product. Is that enough better that we should look for it or is a standard thread locker formula good enough for our purposes?​

 

[jttheclockman]

I too will pile on Brian now that we have an expert amongst us. Lets use him. You mention the metals that it is usually good for. Now the parts we are pressing together and sometimes screwing together are disimilar metals. Maybe brass tubes and gold plated brass or whatever they make these parts out of. The plating is probably coated with something to give it a shine. Does that cause a problem??? The platings on these parts are just that platings. Not sure if I am wording this right.

 

[bstach]

Randy,

I am sorry to be diffuse, but as the answer may be simple, the solution isn't.

Loctite does carry similar products to the Permatex product you mention. They are generally called retaining compounds. They are designed to work in press-fit applications such as retaining press fit bearings to shafts or the joints found in pen making. They would be the correct choice. I would recommend Loctite 638 which is a high strength retaining compound with gap filling properties (up to 0.015 inch) or Loctite 641 which is a medium strength retaining compound with semi-gap filling properties (up to 0.008 inch).

As a note... the 638 was designed for high stress situations and once the compound cures you most likely not be able to disassemble the joint, something that could be called "weld strength". The 641 is not nearly as strong but I would be a bit concerned that you could also damage your joint if you need to disassemble it.

I wanted to finish by saying that if you do not see any problems with using threadlocking compound in a press-fit application then I do not see any problem with continuing to use it. We always tell our customers that you need to use the compounds in your applications and test the results for yourself. Much of our knowledge in using the compounds we have come directly from the customer when they said "Hey, why don't we try that?..."

Simply, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Brian

 

[bstach]

John,

First, just to let you know most plated metal components are not coated with something else to help kick up the shine. The shine from the components comes from the same thing as finishing our work, the finer I sand/buff/polish the item the higher the gloss. So the base part before plating needs to be buffed to a high polish first as the plating process just like our finishing will highlight defects in the prep work.

Now to the meat of your question. Simply put, it will always cause a problem. But before I scare you off, it depends on how much of a problem you will have.

Also, please bear with me, it is a hard question to answer without a bit of backround, don't run away yet.

Whenever you put two dissimilar metals together you start a small reaction that usually goes unnoticed for a very long time. What you get is a redox or electrochemical reaction, think of it as a small battery. All metals (or any material for that matter) have a base electronegativity or ability to give or receive electrons. The greater the difference in the electronegativities, the more exciting the reaction. All metals if dissimilar, when put in contact together will begin passing electrons from one to the other and the process of corrosion begins. How much and how fast the corrosion takes place depends on how different in electronegativity the two dissimilar metals are.

This dissimilar metal corrosion is the reason that you do not see many old aircraft or NASA spacecraft around. These were engineered with top performance in mind, not long term survivability. There is all sorts of dissimilar metal contact and as such, many of the old planes and NASA's rockets are falling apart due to corrosion.

As an extreme case of how different electronegativities can be demonstrated. When you place Sodium in Water, the sodium has a low electronegativity and essentially, forces its electrons into the water, all the while, flaming and sputtering and spitting.

Now most of the metals and platings we deal with in penturning are close enough in electronegtivities to not really be a problem. You will not see dissimilar metal corrosion in 5, 10, or 20 years. What I cannot say is that it will not happen, it will happen but in most of the cases, not in our lifetimes or a few generations after.

Sorry about the long treatise, but I was hoping to explain a bit more thoroughly in effort to give a bit of understanding not just an answer.

Hope the chemistry didn't scare anyone off.

Brian

 

[jttheclockman]

Brian

Excellent job on the explaining. I knew we had our man here. I am going to have to give this stuff a try because I was using CA glue and it is one pain in the butt to get apart. I never would have thought of it if it wasn't for this site. You learn something new every day. Thanks again.

 

[woodboys]

Brian,
Thanks for the metal lesson. I wondered why stainless steel doesn't rust by itself but put a piece of iron on it and it doesn't take long before it does. Now I know.

 

[Jim15]

Thanks for the explanations Brian.

 

[Mudder]

How about 609 or 603? We use a lot this stuff where I work.

Also, What is the best way to dispose of the stuff once it is past it's shelf life? We occasionally have some small amounts that go out of date before we can use it.

 

[bstach]

John,

Just another suggestion, if you want to be able to disassemble the pen, use one of the low or medium strength Threadlockers such 222 (low) or 242/243 (medium).

Sorry I am not really familiar with Permatex's product line so I cannot give equivalent suggestions for their products

Retaining compounds are designed to have, in general, a much higher shear value or how much force it takes to break the bond. If you use them you may not be able to get the parts apart and it would be like using CA glue.

As a funny note, CA glue, threadlockers and retaining compounds are very similar chemically.

Brian

 

[bstach]

Billy and Jim,

Thanks.

It feels nice to be able to contribute. Before this thread I have been on just to get inspiration and information as I didn't have much to contribute before.

I am still working and practicing to become a better turner and penmaker but at least I have this chemistry thing pretty much licked.

Brian

 

[bstach]

Scott,

609 and 603 retaining compounds should work just fine, they are for tighter tolerances.

I recommended 638 and 641 just to give a little leeway in case there is any wide gaps (read 0.010 - 0.015 inch) due to manufacturing of the pen parts.

As for disposal, this little trick will work for threadlockers and retaining compounds.

Just add some metal shavings/dust/small pieces to the bottle and allow it to cure. You can use steel but the best is small pieces of copper, say from wire that was stripped of insulation. Just make sure the copper is free of corrosion. Give it time to cure into a hard plastic lump and throw it out in the garbage.

Brian

 

[Mudder]

Scott,

609 and 603 retaining compounds should work just fine, they are for tighter tolerances.

I recommended 638 and 641 just to give a little leeway in case there is any wide gaps (read 0.010 - 0.015 inch) due to manufacturing of the pen parts.

As for disposal, this little trick will work for threadlockers and retaining compounds.

Just add some metal shavings/dust/small pieces to the bottle and allow it to cure. You can use steel but the best is small pieces of copper, say from wire that was stripped of insulation. Just make sure the copper is free of corrosion. Give it time to cure into a hard plastic lump and throw it out in the garbage.

Brian

Thank you Brian,

I'll use your suggestions.