Just Wondering

[jleiwig]

I've been looking around at woodturning club sites, and I see a lot of them get major discounts to CUSA and other places like Klingspor, usually on the order of 30% or more off.

I'm wondering why IAP doesn't have a permanent discount set up with them? Every so often I see the mini group buys, but wouldn't it be easier to have something permanent set up like the AAW does?

We have enough members to assure that they will get plenty of orders, so it's not like they will lose out on the deal.

Also, is IAP set up as a not for profit? A 503b or whatever it is?

I'm not sure this in the right area, so feel free to move it.

 

[alphageek]

I'm not sure that CSUSA would do that.. The reason that they give clubs discounts is that they hit the single order volume numbers, just like we do with our group buys.

And Jeff may chime in here, but IAP is not a non-profit. It is a privately held site.

 

[GouletPens]

Yeah, far as I know the IAP is just a forum, privately owned. There's no official "organization". This issue came up with the local chapters and what 'organization' there should be. I think most here would rather skip all the formalities and just keep it a private site. I can't imagine the hassle involved for Jeff and the head folks that keep the forum running to make the IAP an official organization. Then there would probably be dues involved, and blah blah blah. If you really want the 30% discount on a regular basis, join the local clubs or wait for an IAP group buy.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Yeah, far as I know the IAP is just a forum, privately owned. There's no official "organization".

Brian - According to the mission statement, the IAP IS a formal organization. See below (my emphasis)

Mission Statement:

The International Association of Penturners (IAP) is an organization that recognizes pen making as a craft with unique and distinctive character. Pen making encompasses a vast array of techniques, materials, technical knowledge, and novel approaches to produce a functional, aesthetically appealing writing instrument. The goal of the IAP is to give pen makers a place to enhance their skills, share experiences, and promote the art of pen making.

The Organization:

The IAP is a virtual association of like-minded individuals. It has no formal governing structure or elected officials, no dedicated offices or facilities, and no assets other than the knowledge base developed over time from member contributions and discussions. The primary "meeting place" for our members is our discussion forum.

Policy-making and management is handled by a custodian and appointed advisers whose primary goal is to maintain a fun, friendly, orderly, productive environment for all members. While the site is largely self-policing, with members responsible for keeping order amongst themselves in the discussion forums, a team of moderators and the site administrator provide enforcement of the rules when that need infrequently arises.

Membership is free of charge and is activated simply by obtaining a username and password to access the Penturners.org web site. We are an all-volunteer organization and no one is compensated for their effort. Site operations (hosting, bandwidth, software, etc.) and professional services are funded through donations. You will find no paid advertising on our web site, although we do sometimes recognize vendors for contributions of contest prizes.

Our Web Site:

Penturners.org is the official Web site of the IAP. Along with very active discussion forums, we offer member photo albums, and a library of articles and instructions.

 

[GouletPens]

Andrew, I get what you're saying, but in terms of what Justin was asking about, the IAP is not an organization. There is no 'governing body', no official filings with the government. I think he was asking about the 'filing status' of the IAP, and there is none from what I understand. The IAP is recognized by many of our vendors as being a powerful community of like-minded individuals that can influence the purchasing of products, and perhaps that might be enough to persuade some vendors into giving discounts.

 

[jleiwig]

Andrew, I get what you're saying, but in terms of what Justin was asking about, the IAP is not an organization. There is no 'governing body', no official filings with the government. I think he was asking about the 'filing status' of the IAP, and there is none from what I understand. The IAP is recognized by many of our vendors as being a powerful community of like-minded individuals that can influence the purchasing of products, and perhaps that might be enough to persuade some vendors into giving discounts.

From Wikipedia=

The .org TLD is mostly associated with non-profit organizations. In addition to its wide use in the charitable field, it is often used by the open-source movement, as opposed to the .com domains used mostly by companies.

This is how I've always associated .org websites, even though it's not required to be a non-profit for registration of a .org name, most people just assume it's some sort of non-profit.

I guess the thing I don't get is why is it called the International Association of Penturners? If we are truly an association, and we have a .org name, then somewhere we should be registered as a non-profit. It may also go a long way towards establishing a presence in the world among manufacturers.

For example, I am a member of a professional organization that is registered as a non-profit, has a .org website, and has no formal structure of president, vice president, etc. We are bound as a group of like minded individuals where no one has any more say in any event than anyone else.

We do pay an annual due, but that is soley for the upkeep of the website, and to promote our cause via guest speakers, quarterly meetings, and a scholarship fund.

IAP is one of the most generous groups of individuals, always willing to help out anyone in need with donations, or in any other way. Like it or not, there is a formal organizational structure here, and people do have titles (Jeff=Admin=Presidente, Curtis=Head Moderator=Vice Presidente, etc...), so I just don't understand what the big deal is in making it a true "association"?

I guess I'd just like to put my time and effort to good use into making IAP great. Why should we be a subset of the AAW like some have suggested? Why should pen turning be the butt end of a joke to "real" woodturners?

To me, pen turning is much more than just turning wood. Pen turning is more about function, form and style. Sure a natural edged bowl may be niced to look at, but it ain't all that useful right? Everyone needs a finely crafted writing instrument, but not everyone needs a wooden vase to hold fake flowers.

It's just my opinion and I haven't turned a pen on my own equipment yet, but I'd like to hear other opinions on the matter.

 

[RussFairfield]

I don't think that "Organization" of the IAP is a good topic on this forum.

The original intention by the founders of the IAP was that it would be a real organization. By-Laws were written, and they may still be available on the site somewhere. Officers and a Board of Directors were elected. It was to be a dues paying association, with a tax status, incorporation, and all of the trimmings of membership; and it was all on-line.

And that was the problem. It was all on-line. It was difficult enough that nobody knew anybody else other than by their messages on the forum. It was compounded by nobody using their own names. Everyone is anonymous. That hasn't changed, and therein lies the problem.

Everyone wanted an organized IAP, but only a few were willing to devote the time to make it happen. All that the rest was willing to do was complain. The anonymity of the Internet allows people to behave far different on-line than they would if they were face to face in a room. The venemous messages that were posted by those who disagreed or wanted everything their own way were beyond belief. The Board threw in the towel in about 6 weeks because of irreconcileable differences. That this forum survived is a testimony to Jeff's and a few others ability to forgive and forget what was said in some of those messages. They were brutal.

Different people in a different time might be successful. But, who will do it?? Their skin will have to be armor-plate. Meanwhile, what is wrong with the IAP as it is?

 

[alphageek]

(clipped)
IAP is one of the most generous groups of individuals, always willing to help out anyone in need with donations, or in any other way. Like it or not, there is a formal organizational structure here, and people do have titles (Jeff=Admin=Presidente, Curtis=Head Moderator=Vice Presidente, etc...), so I just don't understand what the big deal is in making it a true "association"?

I guess I'd just like to put my time and effort to good use into making IAP great. Why should we be a subset of the AAW like some have suggested? Why should pen turning be the butt end of a joke to "real" woodturners?

(clipped)

Just got to put 2 more cents in... IAP is GREAT!!!! as is. I see no reason to make anything more formal or non-profit. We are a TRUE association, if not what you're calling a formal one.

As for the "real" woodturners and being the butt end of a joke? Yeah, I've heard that at times, but I've seen many "real" turners who couldn't compete with MY pens, much less some of the MUCH (MUCH MUCH) more talented pen makers here. I think there is that 'looking down' in any space, but thankfully I don't see that here.. Everyone gets some nice comments, even beginning turners.

 

[Daniel]

Keep this in mind. The IAP is by far the most successful group for penturners to date in every way.
Now this does not mean it should not change, could not change or even will not change with time.
My question is. What exactly woudl be the benefit to the group and what it is now by being non profit or an Official Association.
Years ago I thought it would be a big plus to the group if you could find great deals on products you would be buying anyway. It would add one more reason to be a part of the group and increase the overall value of the group. I have since spent by far most of my time on this group doing group buys. Now group buys are nearly as common everyday expected events as posting pictures of finished pens are.
I also think that a data base (a book was at one time proposed) in order to actually catalog the vast amount of information this group has generated. Although I think this is a great idea. I do not give my time or effort to it. In short the truth is it is not important enough to me. As in important enough to actually stop thinking about it and start doing it.
For me this group is a product of all the things that where important enough to somebody at some point. It is important enough to several members to great new members. it is important enough to others to pass on basic info to first time turners time and again. and it is important enough to others to figure out how to cast cat turds.
Someday it may become important enough to someone to actually get non profit status for the IAP. It is not easy. I also suspect they will find out in short order why nobody has done it. expect about a 4 year ordeal if not longer.

 

[Russianwolf]

IAP is a non-profit in that Jeff does not make a profit running it (I don't think). You do not have to register as a non-profit to be one, but you don't get certain benefits without registering (sales tax exemptions, etc.)

I've set up a non-profit myself in www.thelakotafoundation.org but I have yet to take it to the full level of registration. It's in limbo in fact since I haven't had a lot of time to dedicate to it. Someday..........

The non-profit part is easy. What money comes in goes out in expenses. Nothing left means no profit. Can't get much simpler than that.

 

[GouletPens]

I'm an officer in my local AAW club as well as helping to start up a local IAP chapter, and believe me, there is plenty of work involved in setting up and running a filed, official organization that requires countless hours to be done by generous individuals who will rarely be thanked for what they do. The reason this IAP is so great is because of the people invovled....no dues, no meetings, nothing but creativity and the flowing of ideas shared by individuals with like passions. The amount of thankless work that would be required by a few to organize benefits like group discounts and the like for the rest of us is staggering and unnecessary. Just ask anyone who's organized a group buy how much work that is.