Just a thought

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jttheclockman

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With so many Newbies joining and the frequency of many of the same questions about turning acrylic blanks, turning wood blanks, and finishing with CA and the problems that can occur I was wondering if it would be a good idea to impliment something we did on a scrollsawing site years ago. What we did was make a list of things that should be done or methods that worked for others and then we stickied it at the top of the forum. We includede tricks to make things easier. So when Newbies comes asking a question the first place to look would be there and if nothing fits their needs they would pursue it further.

Just thinking out loud.
 
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gbpens

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John everything you say is on target. But here is a cavat. Instructions tell us how to do things correctly. They do not tell us how to correct the errors. Quite often we are asking for help and not even taking the readers into account. They cannot see what we have done or how we did it. Framing the proper questions is half the answer. Perhaps we could try listing some of the common errors, there consequences and possible remedies.
 

jttheclockman

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John everything you say is on target. But here is a cavat. Instructions tell us how to do things correctly. They do not tell us how to correct the errors. Quite often we are asking for help and not even taking the readers into account. They cannot see what we have done or how we did it. Framing the proper questions is half the answer. Perhaps we could try listing some of the common errors, there consequences and possible remedies.


This is always 9/10ths of the battle when it comes to answering questions. We are not physchics. We need as much info as can be supplied to recreate in our minds what problems you are all looking at and that is just tough at times and thus you get 1000 different answers and who knows what is the one that will help. A photo will always save alot of typing too.
 

PTsideshow

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The biggest general problem on any forum is people will not use the search or some won't spend an extra minute looking for an FAQ or library or anything else.
On another forum I moderate a artist joined and demanded a detailed explanation, of a very involved metal fabrication technique. We had a very detailed thread on the subject. When no one answered her she posted a nasty post about nobody wanting to help her.
I posted that the info she was seeking was available by use of the search.
She told me that she was much to busy to bother with such things as searching a forum were people with little talent, and nothing better to do spend their time!
I don't know if she every found it but not one member ever did answer, any more of her questions!:wink:
Granted she was extreme, but a lot of people are just as rude about wanting information, with out taking part in the community.

This forum has a great community, a very good library of most things basic and advanced pertaining to pen making. and some of the best penners willing to share their secrets.

Yet you can tell the newbees that haven't spent 10 minutes either searching the forums, or even looking back 4 pages at topics etc.
nativewoodworker said:
perhaps set up the "library" in flashing red lights.

Sadly I don't think it would help much, as some people only speed read the 1st post, as that is human nature of some on the web. I mean how many posts in the finish forum are there on CA more than half I think.

Still even with that this is still one of the better forums on the net!
:clown:
 

leehljp

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In defense of some folks - my daughters are great with searches and can come up with "searches" right on, while I am getting mediocre results at best. And, this forum's search seems to work fine for me at times and then there are the times when it won't give me squat. I can't even find some of my posts through search sometimes, and can't figure out what the "search" wants in order to find it.

Yes, I agree that search is under used and that some people are just lazy, but I don't think that I can place all or even the majority into that category.

Now, for another perspective on this subject - Beginners are beginners. It is easier to ask a question that is specific to them. Even if it is a repeat question. I have come to accept that on the forums that I frequent. Other forum long time members (at least some long time members) also get irritated at answering the same questions over and over.

I have found that over the years, when I have had enough of responding to the same questions over and over, - for me it is easier and move on and let some of the intermediate fellows answer, or just let the ones that just learned the answer - answer. That is the way to develop future leaders and fellows that forge ahead. I am not a "teacher" but I do have "teacher" blood in me. That is what teachers do - over and over each year. I also know I am not going to stop people from asking the same question that has just been asked a few days before. Human nature will win out! :wink:

I appreciate the folks that took time with me early on. If we decided that we are no longer going to answer basic questions except to say "use the search", then we cut people off. I have come to the point that I don't resent or get irritated with the same questions being asked again and again.
• There are those that WILL read the library and do searches;
•And there are those who need personal mentoring.
•And there are those that will take advantage of every one of us in our helping.
But this should not stop us from either offering or encouraging others to develop their talents and then move this pen turning technology forward! This is done best through personal mentoring/coaching. Teachers do this "repeat" every year.
 
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JKicker

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Most problems, issues, and questions posted on this forum are repeats and I have gained a ton of knowledge reading through old posts, the library, and using the search feature. While I'm new here and don't answer many questions due to my lack of experience, it would seem to me that if everyone stopped answering repeated questions and pointed people to the library and search widget, then the forums would lose browsing traffic and that could hurt new membership and the site as a whole.

Another thought is there are multiple ways to solve most problems with new solutions being discovered everyday. A sticky or library article may only show one or two solutions. If there is never new dialog about old problems then the new solutions may not be shared.
 

Hubert H

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I'm sure that IAP can be improved on just as most all things can be made better - BUT - I just want to say that I have really appreciated IAP and say thanks to those that run it. Hank made some good points. Well written.
 
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That was so nicely put Hank, I appreciate when a post like that one gets thoughtfully put together.

When I first came here I read through the posts over and over and was motivated to learn. I can understand some folks frustration with new people but remember there are many organizations that have just ceased to exist or become so stagnant by allowing themselves to become so buddy oriented that they didn't want someone new to join the conversation.
 

keithbyrd

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I think another thing in defense of beginners is they don't know what questions to ask for sure? I know I did searches looking for things and often someone would answer with a link to another thread that I couldn't find, didn't search right or wasn't smart enough to know that the topic on that thread was the same one - just in someone else's words. Often I think the beginner gets into a bind - trying to get something done, makes a mistake and gets a little desparate about how to save a project. And is hoping for some quick help!
I like Hanks response!
 

mredburn

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Sometimes you cant ask a question in the search box to get an answer because it deletes common words out of your question. If you get zero answers or just as bad, 27 pages of threads that have your key words in them you can get lost trying to sort them out.
There is a cycle on this forum that starts with new members asking questions. Once they learn the answer they are happy to share the information they have learned with the next generation of new turners. As they continue to repeat the same answers to the same questions they eventually let others that have come behind them answer them instead. Hence Lee's post on the matter. What irritates me is an established member with an average of 2-3 posts per day asking beginner questions again and again without even trying to search the answers. I have no problems answering a beginners question that has just joined or few posts.
 
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jeff

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I'll point Wayne at this thread for his comments. He's looking for ways to make everything more accessible and organized.

At the bottom of the search menu (between "New Posts" and "Quick Links" on the menu bar) is "Google Site Search" which works great. You can search the library, which is fully indexed, or forum posts, or both simultaneously.

I've proposed various things over the years for collecting useful, single topic information into a useable format. Non have gotten much traction for various reasons. The Wiki is the best example, but I understand people were not very comfortable with that format. Probably keeping it to forum posts is a better idea. So....

Something I thought about recently was "One Post Topics" where we'd start a thread on, say, CA finish. People would condense their most important thoughts into ONE post. So there would not be any discussion, but just many posts from various people with their opinion. Each post would be meaty and stand alone, none of the "what Bob said" kind of thing. Those threads could be then compiled into a FAQ in the library. Now and then we could freshen them by opening them up for new material from new members.

If that's of interest, I can write some brief guidelines and we can give one a try.
 

leehljp

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Jeff,

I think that - what you are proposing - would be great. And it will address the issue that John brought up.

If someone follows the directions and doesn't understand or get the expected results, at least they will have a foundation (and basic terminology) from which to iterate it.
 

walshjp17

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One thing that would be helpful is to either develop a FAQ similar to the one in the Yahoo Penturner's Group or ask permission to cross-post theirs here. Many, if not most, of IAP members also subscribe to the Yahoo Penturner's Group.

I'd post a link but I don't want to step on any toes or violate any copyright restrictions.
 

Exabian

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I am relatively new to the IAP and pen turning. I am the type to try to hunt down an answer before asking a question, but I have come to find that pen turning has its own language and so does this forum. Now don't get me wrong the acronym list, library, and search helps out but not everything is on there. I have learned a great deal here and look forward to learning more. But as a new guy some of the instructions amongst other things sound foreign especially to someone new to field as a whole.

I remember when I first joined the army. I called home to talk to my dad and he couldn't understand a word I was saying because I talked in Army lingo. I had to force myself to use words that he can understand or relate to. Sometimes we forget or don't see how much we've change and our speech with it when we grow and cross into new levels and fields.

Lastly just because someone has a computer and can get to the internet doesn't mean they know how to use it or understand it completely. I got family that can attest to that.:chuckle:.
 

leehljp

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I am relatively new to the IAP and pen turning. I am the type to try to hunt down an answer before asking a question, but I have come to find that pen turning has its own language and so does this forum.

AND, in some cases words have regional or cultural differences. I have heard "Pop the grain" among carpenters and cabinet makers as to wetting it with water to make the grain rise up, and then sand the raised grain, creating a VERY smooth surface. This prevents rough surfaces when adding finish. ON THIS Fourm, "Pop the Grain" was used by many to mean - adding oil to bring out or enhance the grain features.

"Terminology" and "lingo" can cause a communications problem sometimes.
 

jttheclockman

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I just want to make a point here. I was not showing disgust of answering questions from newbies because most of the times I do not bother any more because I am one that has become tired of anwering them but let others do so. I mentioned this once before though when these same questions get asked they not always get answered fully or correctly because others like myself have stopped answering them. This is why the search feature or the google feature is important.

My suggestion and Jeff sort of touched on it was to make some sort of list of things to do for a particular case. I mentioned we did this on a scrollsawing forum and worked quite well. We mentioned what blades are used when. and tips on cutting clockwise and counterclockwise and so forth. Anyone coming to the site can browse these tips and if they can not find something to help them then take it to the next level and ask. Each forum can have these sticky posts on the top.

I am in no way discouraging begginners or anyone else to not ask questions. Ask away. Just throwing an idea out there.

As far as terminology goes that is in every field weather it is a hobby or a work related field. I am sure we all could talk a whole other language if we got started talking about what we do.
 
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CoastalRyan

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As a very new member here I'll offer my .02. I've been a member at a number of boards, owned and moderated boards 10 times this size and ten times smaller over the last 10 or so years.

As much as it annoys some to deal the repetitiveness of even the most basic questions its imperative for the longevity of a board to not discourage new members from asking questions, even the obvious stuff.

In a hobby were it is easy to get discouraged its even harder to find easy answers.

A lot of the problem is mentioned above. The rhetoric or jargon is basic for some but a foreign language for others. So even though the search function can lead to easy answers if you can't get passed the dialogue then it isn't much help.

A lot of the basic knowledge is taken for granted. I couldn't tell one chuck from the last and if it wasn't for my experiences in shop class I wouldn't know what a chuck is. Until last month I had no idea what a MT2 was either.

I'll offer a great personal example. I've seen threads all over the internet discussing bowl turning. I've seen dozens of videos on youtube but I have yet to see a video explain how to chuck up a bowl to be turned. I still don't know. Every video assumes that you'll know how to mount the wood to the lathe before turning. Seems pretty basic doesn't it. I still don't know how to do it. Its easy to take fundamental knowledge for granted.

I've been a member at some large boards where they have a lot of walk-thru threads up on sticky and it does help. Some even have 4-5 user written or video'd variation (admin approved)that are hugely informative. So I'm a big advocate for this. Read before asking forums aren't a bad idea. You guys already kinda have this with the library.

I was once an admin at a billiard forum that frowned on newbie questions and was instructed to delete and/or lock questions that could be easily searched. Suffice to say that participation dwindled as the original cast moved on. The board didn't make it. The boards that are the most flexible and most tolerant always stand the test of time. You gotta leave the door open or the people won't come in.
 
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robutacion

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I agree with many of folks here, in regards to keeping the doors open to everyone otherwise, IAP will get the same fate as many other forums that started with the best of intentions and then became a private club with little room and or appreciation to new members so, lets be very careful here, please...!

Yes, one can get a little tired of answering the same questions all of the time however, one has to remember and realize that, we ALL been there, we ALL asked the same questions too, we All went to a new forum looking for a answer, expecting a pleasant welcoming and someone that could help out, mano to mano, without even considering any search for matching words, as that is the most common results you get so, this new person has a specific question/problem/issue, he/she may be aware that, others may have had the same troubles and they got through it, how...??? they don't really know but the first though is going to a "group" of people that deals with the area on interest and ask a direct question...!

That person deserves to have a specific answer to his/hers specific question, regardless of how many times others have asked it, period..!

The older members (not aged related) may reach a time where they feel that they have done their part in doing all the answering and things start to get a little boring to them, in that respect that, is understandable and some how justifiable, I have myself been in that situation more than once however, I wait for the next generation, the ones that asked those questions and I answered, to come forwards and do their bit on that issue, is like the common "paying forwards" pen blanks offers, same thing and only if no one replied within 24 to 48 hours, I come forwards and provided the answers requested (if I can...!), we re-tribute what once we received and that is what I call true membership participation and passing on...!

There are the "suckers" those that only are interested in suck everyone's brains for information, with absolutely no intention of being a good sport, a good Samaritan and particularly, give something back from where he got so much, those are and will always be there however, their greediness frequently leaves nasty biting teeth marks in the tit that fed them so, they are easily spotted and given marching orders, quick smart so, this is all part of the complexity of being part of a web community, or any group of people for that matter, we simply live and let live, or..., we should..!

I can honestly say that, I always had problems dealing with libraries and searches, never seem to have the right "words" to get the right results and I simply prefer to deal with face to face type communication. Is nice to know that, you are asking a question and that someone, somewhere is taking the time to give you a little attention and try to help you out, that is what makes me and wanting to, be part of a place just as IAP so, whatever you do, do not destroy that, we would be destroying IAP, period...!

There should be "Welcoming" designated members in rotation type to make new people feel welcome, there should be a designate group in rotation style to come forwards every time a common question is asked they will have on they arsenal, a number of direct links and recommendations to where this person can read/see what has been said/shown on that same issue however, that IAP designated member(s), will start the communication and reflect on the question asked, instead of send these people into a sticky cob-web, and you are not a spider...!

I put my money where my mouth is, and I will continue to give the new comers plenty to ready and see, with my replies, until I see some other system implemented to deal with this exact issue that in essence, is what started all these forums, all over the world...!

Cheers
George
 

panamag8or

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I'm normally a laid-back kind of guy, but what is starting to bug me is people starting threads in the penturning forum that should go into a different forum. On the first page right now, there are intro threads, a "look at my pen" thread, threads about finishing, etc.

Whew, I'm gonna take a deep breath and let it go, now.
 

Phillikl

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My pennies worth......

First off, I want to thank everyone for the knowledge they share; I have learned more here then any school, class, or book I have ever picked up. I would also like to say thanks for the patience on some of my basic/already answered questions.

Feedback:
Like previously said, search has a mind of its own. 1 out of 30 times do I get what I'm looking for. I do however try it before I post.

Would like to see a sticky group (Hot Topics); then sub groups for those high driving questions. For example it seems like 1 out of every 6 pen turning questions refer to CA. Hot Topics -> CA would be great starting point.

Would like to see a group called wood, just plain wood!

Like I said, just my pennies worth. Not sure of the dynamics of the boards or #of moderators or if even possible. I still read every post, learn from others and give back where I can...
 
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