Iv'e Had it...

[woodmarc]

With the standard mandrels. I have gone through 4 of the MT bases and at 8 of the shafts. Every single shaft will go in straight until it comes time to tighten. then the shaft will become misaligned but up to 8deg. I'm not cranking down the shaft, just hand tight.

How many of you have experienced the same thing? Or has my Irish run out?

I have been looking at the adjustable mandrel listed on the CSUSA site. My question is this, will the mandrel work with any of the shafts out there? Be it CS, PSI or Berea? I'm thinking it will, but thought I would post this here and see if anyone else has had any experiences that they would like to share.

TIA

 

[vick]

They do get bent but usually not any where near that rate. I know Berea and CSU mandrels are pretty good not so sure about PSI.

The three main reason I think mandrels get bent
1. Overtightening tailstock
2. Overtightening Knurled nut on end of mandrel.
3. Dull tools or cutting with to much preasure with your tools(usually becuase they are dull).
The CSU adjustable mandrel should work on all three suppliers kit except Bereas kits that take a B mandrel. I had very good luck with that mandrel.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Have you tried checking the head stock tail stock for alignment?
Is there any "crud" in the MT2 in the head stock?
I have had problems like you describe but have found that things aren't "clean" enough.
Any CA build up on the bushings?
When using the pen mill is there a "burr" inside the tubes?
(I have found this to be the problem when I use certain shats on the universal mill from PSI. The barrel trimming tool from BB solves that problem but so will a counter sink bit.
If it were one or two shafts I would think it is the mfg's fault but since it seems to be a constant problem I wonder if it is a problem with the lathe.
How about bearings? could there be a problem there?
HAve you seen Russes "mandrel tune up" on his site?

 

[Dario]

From your description..I would guess the problem is how you mill the ends of your blanks.

If they are not properly milled (not totally perpendicular to the tube)...there will be a "wedge" like effect and will cause the cantilever when you tighten the nut.

BTW, if there is crud (i.e. dried CA, etc.) on your bushings or nut...those can cause same effect too.

Investigate that first and see if it helps.

 

[chigdon]

Dario's thought is a very good one. Have your turned sections been lining up consistantly with the kit parts or does it look that they have been oval at all?

 

[woodmarc]

The taper is clean. These are new mandrels. Never used. the problem lie not in mounting blanks or anything on the mandrels.

It is in the first assembly of the "A" or "B" shaft to the Taper adapter that goes into the headstock. the shaft goes in straight, up to the point where the thread on the shaft ends, it is at this point where everything goes off center. I can back the shaft out a qtr turn, and everything is as straight as an arrow. If I leave the mandrel like this and put a set of blanks on the mandrel, the torque of turning will tighten the shaft and I end up with a bent shaft. [V]

I hope I am describing this OK. [:I]
Any suggestions?

Also, from my origonal post, would the adjustable mandrel from CSUSA or Lee Valley work with either mandrel shaft? [?][?][?][?]

 

[Dario]

Read my post well...I am not talking about the mandrels.

 

[woodbutcher]

If I understand you correctly you are tightening the blanks on the mandrel prior to bringing the tailstock/live center into turning position. Try bringing the tailstock into turning position before tightening the blanks on the mandrel. Hope this helps,
Jim[]

 

[loglugger]

Marc, I think if I get what you are saying I would take them back as something is not milled square on the end of the mandrel where it goes into the tapered part. I tried one of the adjustable mandrels and the center was not centered, don’t remember where I got it, others have had good luck with them. I like the A mandrels from Berea. Haven’t tried the B.
Bob

 

[ctEaglesc]

The adjustable manadrel is a dedicated collet chuck.
I purchased one when I first started turning .
For the mony invested in them I would get a collet chuck instead if you are determined to something different.
One thing you might try.
Woodcraft sells a mandrel and adapter for $10.00.
The mandrels are not interchangeable with other M2 adapters but the cost is low.
If you have a WC near you this may tell you if the problem is in the lathe or not.
I use their mandrels in my Beall collet chuck at times.

 

[crashgtr]

I had a similar problem and it turned out that the inside of the morse taper on the lathe needed a good cleaning.

Russ Fairfield has instructions on his site about making pens and the info is a link within the articles on pen making.

Good luck.
Liz

 

[loglugger]

Mark, if you put a mark on the out side of the taper on the side that the mandrel leans to, then pull the hole thing out and rotate it 180, put it back in and if it still leans toward the mark then it is the taper. If it goes away from the mark then it is probably be morse taper in the lath head. Let us know what you find out.
Bob

 

[Scott]

Hi Marc,

I understand that you've had it! What you have been going through is frustrating. You asked if the adjustable mandrel system from CSUSA would help the problem. I have used that system for the past year or two, and I have to say it was OK, but nothing earth shaking. If I may give you some advice: Since you are ready to put out some more money for a new mandrel holder system, and you obviously care that your mandrel is as centered as possible, I would recommend that you invest in a Beall or Axminster collet chuck, and a couple of collets. In the long run you will be glad you did this, even if the up-front cost is more. This will allow you to use whatever mandrel shaft you want, and you will also be able to securely hold other items.

I hope this helps!

Scott.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by woodmarc
<br />the shaft goes in straight, up to the point where the thread on the shaft ends, it is at this point where everything goes off center. I can back the shaft out a qtr turn, and everything is as straight as an arrow.

It is I who didn't read this post well. SORRY.

Seems like you are having the "wedge" effect I am talking about only the one causing it is the thread (or lack there of) on the mandrel and MT2 driver.

Can you try and measure the depth of the hole where you screw the mandrel in the MT2? Measure the length of the thread on the mandrel too. IF the mandrel threaded part on the mandrel is shorter my hunch is that the thread inside the MT2 is pushing the mandrel (and bending it) when it tried to screw on the unthreaded part.

Inspect the mandrel BTW and see if one end have longer thread than the other. If one has longer threaded part...use that in the MT2.

If not, a fix I can think of is <b>put a stopper inside the hole</b>. It can be short piece of metal or a pellet that you drop in there so you can tighten the mandrel but still not reach a point where the unthreaded part engages.

Hope this makes sense....if not send me an email.

 

[Paul in OKC]

It is I who didn't read this post well. SORRY.

Seems like you are having the "wedge" effect I am talking about only the one causing it is the thread (or lack there of) on the mandrel and MT2 driver.

Can you try and measure the depth of the hole where you screw the mandrel in the MT2? Measure the length of the thread on the mandrel too. IF the mandrel threaded part on the mandrel is shorter my hunch is that the thread inside the MT2 is pushing the mandrel (and bending it) when it tried to screw on the unthreaded part.

Inspect the mandrel BTW and see if one end have longer thread than the other. If one has longer threaded part...use that in the MT2.

If not, a fix I can think of is <b>put a stopper inside the hole</b>. It can be short piece of metal or a pellet that you drop in there so you can tighten the mandrel but still not reach a point where the unthreaded part engages.

Hope this makes sense....if not send me an email.

My thought exactly there Dario. You are basically running out of thread on the mandrel. Like Dario said, I would use a small piece of metal, say from a cut off screw , or go to the hardware store and get a 1/4-28 set screw to run down in the hole.

 

[woodmarc]

Dario, Paul
Sorry guys, I've been busy at work rolling out a new project. 14 hour days for the las 10 days leaves little time. Thankfully its a holiday weekend! [][] And I'm off to the woods camping for 4 days.

Depth of hole in Tapers, 1.13" to 1.25"
Length of threads on the shafts, .70 to .80"
Could be a problem! what do you think?


Me thinks that a little locktite is going to be on the immediate shopping list. If that doesnt work, then I'll try the set screw. I'll let you know how it goes after my trip.

I was talking to a couple of CAD designers at work this very afternoon and they suggested basically the same thing as you folks.

Thanks a lot for the direction. I am surprised that this has not come up before, just my luck that it was me that found it [xx(]

Anyway, I have been looking for a good excuse for the Beal collet system. But had yet been able to justify it. [}]

Thanks again for some great help.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by woodmarc


Me thinks that a little locktite is going to be on the immediate shopping list. If that doesnt work, then I'll try the set screw. I'll let you know how it goes after my trip.



Anyway, I have been looking for a good excuse for the Beal collet system. But had yet been able to justify it. [}]

Thanks again for some great help.

Locktite is just overpriced CA glue. Order it from Monty instead!

And I have the Beall on the "wish list" as well.

 

[Sylvanite]

Originally posted by redfishsc
<br />Locktite is just overpriced CA glue. Order it from Monty instead!

Well, "Loctite" is a brand name. The company makes a wide selection of adhesives, including polyurethane glue, CA glue, epoxies, and others.

When somebody says "use loctite", they generally are referring to one of the other glues, specifically, Loctite "threadlocker", which is the adhesive that made Loctite Corporation rich. It is a completely different product than the CA glues Monty supplies.

Loctite threadlocker comes in different formulations for different applications, the most common consumer products are simply color coded red, green, and blue. See http://www.loctiteproducts.com/products/subcategory.asp?CatID=10&SubID=48 for more information.

Regards,
Eric

 

[ctEaglesc]

I certainly wouldn't want to CA the threads of a mandrel in the M2 adapter.
(If it happens a little heat will eventally melt it)

 

[Paul in OKC]

One more thought. You might try using a 1/4-28 nut on the end. Thread it almost all the way on and then thread the mandrel into the taper part, then use the nut as a lock nut. You will still have enough thread in for a good hold.
As for locktite being 'just expensive CA', not the case. We use it at work. Mostly the blue for temperary strength. But on occassion we will use the red for some thing that we don't want coming apart down hole!

 

[Rojo22]

I purchased one of the mandrels you described from Woodcraft, just to get by for a weekend of turning, and found it to have the exact same problem you desribed. The end of the shaft was not milled flat to the threads, and when the shaft was tightened into the morse taper, it became a floppy mess. I dont buy those mandrels anymore for that reason.

The PSI mandrel is what I use now. It is fully adjustable, and works great for turners who turn many different kits. You can adjust how long the shaft is and dont have to use spacers for different sized kits.

I was very frustrated by the weekend of turning with the type of mandrel you described above. Take a deep breath and buy an adjustable, and you will be much happier.

 

[woodmarc]

Eric is correct in what I was eluding too. Back in the day, any kind of threadlock was called locktite.

BLue is what I alsays use. Because you can get it apart agin if you want. Using a lock nut is something that hes never worked right for me. There is a chance of slippage when under the type of pressure we put the mandrel under when in use. The las thing I need is something that self tightens.[:0]

Anyways, I'm off to the woods.

Have a great holiday weekend!!

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by Paul in OKC<br />.....One more thought. You might try using a 1/4-28 nut on the end. Thread it almost all the way on and then thread the mandrel into the taper part, then use the nut as a lock nut. You will still have enough thread in for a good hold.....

Paul's idea is a good one; but be careful about the 1/4-28 size. I seem to remember a post that said some (and maybe all) Woodcraft mandrels are "NOT" threaded the same at both ends. Someone who has such a mandrel can confirm or dispute this statement.....and please do!! [^] I believe the TS end is threaded for 1/4-28 and the HS end is threaded for 1/4-20.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by Rojo22
<br />I purchased one of the mandrels you described from Woodcraft, just to get by for a weekend of turning, and found it to have the exact same problem you desribed. The end of the shaft was not milled flat to the threads, and when the shaft was tightened into the morse taper, it became a floppy mess. I dont buy those mandrels anymore for that reason.

The PSI mandrel is what I use now. It is fully adjustable, and works great for turners who turn many different kits. You can adjust how long the shaft is and dont have to use spacers for different sized kits.
I was very frustrated by the weekend of turning with the type of mandrel you described above. Take a deep breath and buy an adjustable, and you will be much happier.

I couldn't disagree more.
For those who have an adjustable mandrel and like it good for you.
For anyone considering the purchase of a dedicated adjustable mandrel this is what I experienced.
I bought the Woodcraft model early in my pen turning and paid approx.$27.00 for it.
To adjust it you need two wrenches.
If you want to turn 1/2 half a pen at a time you will probably also need a tool rest that will fit between the headstock and the live center.
The two tool rests I have with the Jet and the Rikon are 6 and 8 inches respectively. So along with the dedicated collet chuck there is an increased cost for a tool rest.
The adjustable M2 adapter will only accept a 1/4" mandrel shaft. That's it no chance to put a "B" mandrel in it should you choose any kits that require them.
The alternative is the Beall or Axeminster chuck.The Beall accepts a universal coolet (er32) and there are many different collet sizes to choose from including one that will fit a "B" mandrel.
Lastly the Beall will accept up to a 3/4" collet.
The Axeminster has a profile that allows you to work on the headstock side of the work piece easiler than the Beall.
The downside is the axeminster has a capacity to accept a 5/8ths collet.
The biggest difference between the adjustable mandrel and a collet system is cost.When weighed against the versatlity of a collet chuck the adjustable mandrel The adjustable mandrel loses hands down.
I use the beall with a 3/4" collet and sleeve to drill my casings on the lathe,I use the BEall with the 3/4 incollet to drill antler and glued up blanks accurately on the lathe.
I wish someone had pointed out the shortcomings of the adjustable mandrel before I bought it.For the money I wish the Beall had a different finish so it wasn't so "rust prone" but all in all I would have rather put the $27.00 I spent on the adjustable mandrel towards the Beall.
BTW the adjustable mandrel is just as prone to rust and as far as it solving all wobbling problems any debris in the collet in it will cause the very problems you are trying to solve.
If you are just starting out turning and decide to get an adjustable madrel from any source just realize their limitations and that there are other options that will allow you to grow as to evolve in your pencrafting.
(My normal set up for pens regardless of the length is a standard madrel.Currently I have and use mandrels from Woodcraft, Berea, and PSI.I also occasionally use a 1/4" bolt from the hardware store[])

(Don't even suggest to me a Jacobs chuck.While it is possible to use one , a look at my drill bits tells me how much the jaws chew up metal.)

 

[RussFairfield]

Thank you, Eagle. I could have written the same things about mandrels, adapters, and collets. The adjustable mandrels came on the market at least 10 years ago, and soon disappeared because they were a poor alternative to the threaded attachment. They are back again, and it seems that the problems are the same. The problems that I had with the adjustable mandrel were with the collets not running true to the centerline of the lathe. They were either eccentric to, or at an angle with, the centerline of the spindle. This is a place for precision machining, not 4 collet jaws that looked like they were sawn apart with a hacksaw. Getting one that runs accurately is a luck of the draw. If you have one, consider yourself lucky.

Do the following 3 steps if you are having mandrel problems. You really should be doing this with every new mandrel and adapter.

1.
Check the mandrel for straightness. Roll it on a flat surface like a tablesaw top, the ways on the lathe or the kitchen counter. If it rolls without "humping" it is straight, if it doesn't, it isn't. If it passes that test, go to step 2. If it doesn't, get a new one or try to straighten it. I have to add that I have never found a new mandrel that wasn't straight.

2.
Make sure all of the parts and mating surfaces are clean. Then screw the mandrel into the adapter and put it in the lathe. Bring up the tailstock center until it is about 1/8" from the end of the mandrel. Run the lathe.......

If the end of the mandrel wobbles about the tail center, there is a problem to be fixed with the attachment of the mandrel to the headstock. There has been much written here and other sources about these problems and how they might be resolved. Clean out the spindle taper, and remove any dings from the adapter taper, and try it again. If it is still the same, try rotating the adapter around in the spindle. If that doesn't change the amount of the wobble, the problem is most likely the attachment of the mandrel to the adapter.

If the end of the mandrel runs without any wobble, but is not lined up with the center, then the head and tail stocks are not lined up. This is a common problem if you have a lathe with a swiveling headstock, but you can bring them into alignment. If the lathe has a fixed headstock, you have a permanent problem unless it can be solved by shims under or around the tailstock.

Bring the tail center up to the end of the mandrel. If you can bring the end of the mandrel into line with the tailstock, and the mandrel still runs without any wobble, you might be able to turn a pen that is round and with concentric tubes and wood if you are lucky. Chances are that you cannot turn an accurate pen because the mandrel shaft will no longer be able to flex enough to run in the bowed position after the bushings and tubes have been attached. You can check this out by running the bushings and tubes without wood, If it still runs without wobble, then you should be able to turn a pen.

3.
If the mandrel runs true without any wobble without the tail center, and nothing changes when you bring it up to the end of the mandrel, you can't blame the mandrel for your problems problems.

 

[Paul in OKC]

Originally posted by Randy_
<br />

Originally posted by Paul in OKC<br />.....One more thought. You might try using a 1/4-28 nut on the end. Thread it almost all the way on and then thread the mandrel into the taper part, then use the nut as a lock nut. You will still have enough thread in for a good hold.....

Paul's idea is a good one; but be careful about the 1/4-28 size. I seem to remember a post that said some (and maybe all) Woodcraft mandrels are "NOT" threaded the same at both ends. Someone who has such a mandrel can confirm or dispute this statement.....and please do!! [^] I believe the TS end is threaded for 1/4-28 and the HS end is threaded for 1/4-20.

Good thought. Mine are threaded the same on both ends. The exception being one of my first mandrels had a very short 10/32 thread on it.

 

[Rojo22]

For those of you who havent used an adjustable collet recently, they are threaded for the headstock and very reliable. If you dont have two wrenches laying around, maybe you could ask your wife to borrow hers....

Eagle I am sorry you had so much trouble with yours, but it sounds like you bought all the "extra" stuff because that is how you wanted to turn, not because of the mandrel. I still stand by my statement that even as a new turner, it is the best for the money. I cannot justify even spending the 11.00 for a standard mandrel if it doesnt work correctly. I buy the collet chucks for 19.00 at the most expensive wood working store in 8 states. If you want a b mandrel for the adjustable, just buy the adjustable b mandrel kit, albeit another 19.00 bucks. If you dont keep anything clean, or take care of it, I dont care what you are using, you have issues with it. For the extra 8 bucks, I get a piece of mind (and dont ruin 8 plus dollars worth of wood and kits).

 

[ctEaglesc]

"For those of you who havent used an adjustable collet recently, they are threaded for the headstock and very reliable. "

Not all adjustable mandrels thread onto the headstock, I was referring to one sold by WC and it reqires two wrenches.


"Eagle I am sorry you had so much trouble with yours, but it sounds like you bought all the "extra" stuff because that is how you wanted to turn, not because of the mandrel"

I bought it because that is what the employee at WC reccomended.My statement still stands.

I will venture a guess that more pens have been and are being turned on mandrels with M2 adapters than adjustable.
The money put towards a dedicated adjustable mandrel would be better put to use towards a Beall or an axeminster that is more versatile .

 

[Rojo22]

My comment was directed at your style of turning Eagle, not any technical turning advice. I still turn my pen halves together on the mandrel, which does not require a short tool rest. If that is how you turn your pens, that is great, I bet you get remarkable results with little to no runout. The short tool rest is not required for an adjustable mandrel, it is just your style, not a requirement. This does not mean it is a shortcoming of the adjustable mandrel, just that you need to adjust it to your style.

I was trying to support a fellow turner who had the same experience as I did, and was looking for some advice.

I turn on an adjustable mandrel that is on a 1MT that requires two wrenches and comes from PSI. I dont get any commission for selling them, but after 500 pens find it an easy, quick, and durable way to turn pens. Again I merely wanted to be supportive of a fellow turner. My statement stands as well.

I would love to own an Axminster Jr chuck (74.99 plus the 18.00 for the pen mandrel plus shipping) or the Beall Collet Chuck (82.99 plus 19.99 plus shipping), but it is far less economical than buying the PSI adjustable collet chucks (19.99 no shipping). There is a big difference in price for those of us who are cost aware.

Different strokes for different folks. Your style works for you, I merely wanted to share with the original poster the same experience I had with the same piece of equipment and how I worked around it. Good luck with your turning, I might someday be able to get the above listed chucks and see how they turn pens as well.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />.....The downside is the axeminster has a capacity to accept a 5/8ths collet.....

Where can you get e 5/8" collet for an Axminster JR. chuck?? I checked the Axminster web site and the biggest collet they offer for this chuck is 12-13 mm which is just a few touosandths over 1/2". The largest collet offered in the CSUSA catalog is 1/2".

 

[ctEaglesc]

Randy-
I don't know where or why I thought the axeminster would take a 5/8ths collet.
My mistake.
Another reason for the Beall

 

[alamocdc]

The Axminster is ER-25, right? I thought so, and Eagle is right, a 5/8" collet is the largest available. At least so say the sellers of ER-25 collets.

 

[its_virgil]

I have 3 Woodcraft adustable mandrels and one from PSI and none of them perform correctly. I know quite a few others who have one and their's perform horribly. I agree with Russ and eagle as to the relaibility of these type mandrels. One that works correctly is a rarity and the owner is lucky to have it. It's not a matter of technique or turning ability that it works, just a matter of luck...at least that's my opinion and observation. Like Eagle, I bought one on the suggestion of a WC employee...not a penturner...'nuff said!

The Bealle Collet chuck and the Axmisnister are much better ways to hold a mandrel as well as other turning pieces and pen parts. I opted for the Beall(instead of the Axminister) because of the greater range of collet choices. Woodcraft does have on tool in their stable that I think is worth the $$$. I've seen one and I like it and it may be a good choice for one wanting to get into the collet chuck territory. The collets are not ER32 but are still industry standard collets and other sizes are available. I think they are either ER16 or ER25 but I'm not sure. But, I think the price is good and looks promising. Here is a link to the system:
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5352 Maybe someone using this new WC option could comment on it. I'm sure we would appreciate a tool review by a user. Any other thoughts or comments.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[ctEaglesc]

Don, I saw that when WC decided to stop carrying the beall.
What I saw as a down side was the need for a draw bar if you wanted to use it for drilling.

 

[its_virgil]

Eagle,
I too thought of that and the fact that the MT2 is not as accurate as the Beall... which screws onto the headstock spindle. That's why I was hoping that someone who has purchased it could review it for us. At least for once the WC price seems to be a good one. But for holding a mandrel and using the tailstock, this may be a good fit.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />Don, I saw that when WC decided to stop carrying the beall.
What I saw as a down side was the need for a draw bar if you wanted to use it for drilling.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by alamocdc
<br />The Axminster is ER-25, right? I thought so, and Eagle is right, a 5/8" collet is the largest available. At least so say the sellers of ER-25 collets.

Billy: According to the Axminster web site, the collets are ER-20.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />Randy-
I don't know where or why I thought the axeminster would take a 5/8ths collet.
My mistake.
Another reason for the Beall

The collet chuck on the Morse taper that Don referred to goes to 5/8". Maybe that is were you remembered the figure.

I don't have either the Beall or the Axminster but am saving my pennies......maybe Christmas?? From what I've seen and read, eagle is correct in preferring the Beall. The Axminster is about 10% cheaper and does have the nice feature of extending further from the headstock to provide more clearance for tools; but I personally think the wider grip range of the Beall will be more useful to me and most other turners.

 

[bjackman]

One last item to consider, again in favor of the Beall. The Axminster jr. requires you to "knock out" the collet, whereas the Beall is self extracting when you unscrew the collet cap. The tapered profile and the size of the Axminster was very alluring, but for me the Beall's far greater versatility won me over.
On a personal note, after having owned it for a few months now, I would NEVER go back. I think I would actually get rid of my drill press before I would get rid of my Beall. Oh wait......if I got rid of my drill press what would I do w/ my PHD vise?? [:I]

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />Don, I saw that when WC decided to stop carrying the beall.
What I saw as a down side was the need for a draw bar if you wanted to use it for drilling.

Why would you need a drawbar for drilling?? Drill presses use a Morse taper in the quill and don't have a drawbar.......OOPS, nevermind, I see.[:I][:I][^]

 

[bjackman]

I think you would need to use a drawbar for uses other than drilling as well. Closed end turnings using a pin chuck come to mind for one. Another drawback of the WC version are the collets themselvs. I may be wrong, but I think they are a proprietary size, so if you needed a size in between what comes with the set you may be out of luck. Neither the WC employee (manager) nor I could find anything saying what size they were.