Interesting Dilemma

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I am in North Carolina. I just found this in the NC Wildlife Laws:

Special Provisions for Sale: As stated above, the North Carolina Administrative Code also contains provisions pertinent to the sale of wildlife. 15A NCAC 10B .0118 "Sale of Wildlife" contains the following provisions:

The sale of game birds and game animals or parts is prohibited, except that processed products of lawfully taken game birds and animals other than those made from edible portions may be sold provided that no label or advertisement identifies the product as a game bird, game animal, or part thereof and provided further that the game bird or game animal was lawfully acquired and the product is not readily identifiable as a game bird or game animal or part thereof.

So as I read this, I can make a pen out of deer antler. I think that a pen made of a leagal deer antler could not be "readily identified" as deer antler. I think that a person would have to ask to find out. So that part is satisfied.

But how do you sell someone a pen made of deer antler and not tell them you are selling a pen made of deer antler?

 

[penhead]

"...may be sold provided that no label or advertisement identifies the product..."

So don't label or advertise...wait until they ask..??

JohnPayton

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Joh,
Is saying, "That pen in your hand is made of deer antler." advertising?

My dictionarly says: Advertise, to call public attention to in order to encourage people to buy or use something.

Wouldn't my stating the item was made of deer antler qualify as advertising?

I am not trying to argue here, I just don't want a few days in a cross bar hotel and a large fine.

 

[Guest]

I understand your dilemma.
We have the same law here in S.C.
At least it sounds like they are similar.
I uppose you could call it bone.Not sure what the legality is in that respect.I do sell a lot of deer antler pens.I do get a lot of antler from N.Y.I wonder if they can tell if it's N.Y. deer or S.C. deer.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Eagle,
How bout you call it solidified animal hair? (;-} Some time some where I think I read that deer antler is actually a growth that is the same as hair but it just grows different, or was that rhinoceros tusk?

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

How about I say to a customer who asks "What is this made of?"

"There is a North Carolina law that prevents me from telling someone that I have used deer antler to make something. While it is legal for me to use deer antler and sell something made of it, I cannot state that fact. So in order to comply with that law I cannot tell you what material I used to make that pen out of."

 

[penhead]

I see your point Mac, it might even depend on the mood the legal authority was in that day, too.

But similiar to what Eagle is saying, what if you purchased that antler from some vendor like PennState..?

JohnPayton

 

[Doghouse]

If you read the law, it says you have to show it was legally acquired. If you purchased the Deer antler, you can show the receipt for the deer antler, stating that it is deer antler, but you cannot say it is deer antler. So if they ask, show the receipt, and say according to gaming laws, I cannot say what it is made from but must show it was legally acquired. Most people will laugh and buy it for that reason. Just remember to remove the cost from the receipt.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

John and all,
I didn't buy the deer antler. My wife is a school teacher. One of her student's father has a small meat processing facility that only is open in deer season to handle deer for hunters.

She asked the student's mom if there was any old deer antlers laying around the place and a sack full turned up in her chair one morning. The deer are legal deer that are processed for the hunter that killed it. The antlers are given freely with no compensation by the hunter to the processor and by the processor to me. So the antlers meet the requirement of the law. They are very recognizable for what they are but they are not being sold to me.

Making a pen blank out of them alters them to fit the law of not being readily recognizable. The only issue that I see is when selling the pen, I can't say they are made of deer antler.

Saying they are made of deer bone would be the same problem, the issue is not that they are made of antler or bone it is that they are made of a part of a game animal. And you can't advertise or label the item with that information.

I have sent an email to the NC Dept. of Wildlife and if or when they answer I'll post it here. Meanwhile y'all keep the cards and letters coming. And I might add that if you make items from deer antler, you might want to check your state laws on that subject.

Purchasing antlers from somewhere else, as I see it, doesn't get you around the law. It doesn't say from native NC game animals it just says "game animals".

I agree that should there be an issue, and likely there never would be, it would depend on the mood of the wildlife agent that you happened across.

But say there was a guy at a craft show two booths over that a year ago was fined, big time, for selling beaver tooth necklaces or a wall decoration with feathers from a Yaller Hammer Woodpecker. Say he is still burning from that and sees your deer antler pens and drops a dime on you to wildlife. That is the kind of thing I worry about. Or a new agent who is off for the day with his wife at a craft show and wants to impress his boss about what a great agent he is.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

And further more I think this part of the law is stupid. How many stores in North Carolina, especially up around the Cherokee Reservation, do you think I could go in and find a coat or house slippers that are made of deer skin and are advertised as being deer skin? Or in any big town, mink or beaver or fox or what have you.

We had/have a problem in the bear hunting areas of people killing bears, cutting the gall bladder out. They leave the rest of the bear in the woods to rot, dry the gall bladders and ship them off to China or Japan. If sucess full they make several hundered dollars for one dried gall bladder. I suspect that is where this little issue comes from. An over reaction to a specific problem.

 

[C_Ludwigsen]

You are missing a fundamental point... "except that processed products of lawfully taken game birds and animals"...

So if you took the deer lawfully, or the hunter that brought the deer to the meat plant took it lawfully, or the company that you bought deer antler from took it lawfully, then you are fine. It is a product of a legally taken game animal.

If you call the fish and game for NC and ask them if you can make pens from deer antlers that were either purchased from suppliers like CSUSA or from a hunter that legally took the deer, I would suspect they will say yes then ask you why you bothered to call.

Now, you go out poaching deer to get their antlers so you can make pens??? Then we have a problem.

The states write laws like this to stop illegal activity at both ends - commission and sale. If someone steals my stereo and you buy it from him without making him show you that he got it legally, then both of you can be charged. It is the same principle - that is, if I used the right spelling of principal [].

Enjoy turning the antler.

 

[DCBluesman]

You guys really ought to get a room. []

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Here is the answer from NC Wildlife:

The following is a response from our Enforcement division. You may contact the division at 919 733-7191 if you have further questions. Thank you


You cannot sell deer antlers if they are advertised as, labeled as or recognizable as whitetail deer antlers.

 

[Efletche]

I could understand this law if it were bear gallbladders or something exotic of that nature that is prized in overseas markets, but antlers shed naturally and you don't really have to kill a game animal to get them. Because they are a considered an old growth product, can it not be considered a natural resource; one that is replenished every year? Does this make sense?

 

[C_Ludwigsen]

NC has a screwy interpretation of their law. If it was legally collected, even bear bladder, you should be able to do as you wish with it.

Gee, can you add a disclaimer? "These antlers were shed by deer and collected after the fact. No deer were harmed in the making of this pen".

Proof again that government enacts legislation at the expense of common sense.

Sorry to hear that is their interpretation, Mac.

 

[ryannmphs]

OK, so label the pens as "made from an all natural product". You would not be advertising, labeling, and they sure wouldn't be recognizable as deer antlers.

It would be interesting to see if a Bass Pro Shop in NC sells the "deer antler lamps" like this one http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=44213&hvarTarget=search&cmCat=SearchResults
This is labeled as, advertised as and recognizable as deer antlers.

Ryan

 

[penhead]

That one lamp is labeled as 'mule' deer antler...not 'whitetail' deer....if they are splitting hairs..

JohnPayton

 

[ryannmphs]

The sale of game birds and game animals or parts is prohibited, except that processed products of lawfully taken game birds and animals other than those made from edible portions may be sold provided that no label or advertisement identifies the product as a game bird, game animal, or part thereof and provided further that the game bird or game animal was lawfully acquired and the product is not readily identifiable as a game bird or game animal or part thereof.

Well, as the law reads it does say "game animal" so I would guess that mule deer is a game animal. I'm not really a hunter so I don't know what the difference would be.

Ryan