I have a ? or 2

[Mac]

When I buy a new style kit ,to try ,I check several webb sites to get ideals for pricing ,as I am doing this as a hobby ,but as a selfsupporting one ,(I want to make a profit!)
Heres My ?. If I am making bullet pens with deer antler on top and I killed the deer to get the antler or it was given to me,and bought the 308 brass from a buddy for a nickel a piece
and have $1.60 in the kits,to make a profit do I sell for $45 to $50 the prices that I found
on other sites or just sell for $20 and call that a profit ? better think before you answer!

 

[altaciii]

A man goes fishing all day, catches 5 trout and is eccstatic. The five trout netted him 3 lbs of prime filets and he brings them home happy as a lark. He could have gone to the grocery and bought the fish at $3.00 a lb but the joy of the trip and the excitement it brought him more than made up for the real price per pound he spent. When you take in the cost of fuel, a boat pmt, the gear, the fuel spent in both the boat and truck he probably spent closer to $300 a lb for that nights dinner. Does he care? No. I get a kick out of just creating my pens the fact that someone may want to purchase one of my creations just makes the high a little stronger and creates an urge to turn more. Sure the true cost of my first pens were really high but I enjoyed creating them none the less. Do you really get back all the expense you put into each piece, maybe, maybe not, but just like that fisherman going out again next week, I'm going to continue to creat my personal masterpieces this weekend. If they don't sell, well then all I've done is added a few more pens to my own collection.

 

[ngeb528]

depends on if you had to buy bushings, drill bit(s) and milling sleeve(s) and how much you had to pay for them.

 

[JohnU]

Alex I like the way you think. I too make pens for my personal satisfaction. Yes its nice to sell and make some money when you can, but if I had total it all up, I would guess Im still a little behind. I think Ive sold more pens for a $5 profit than I have anything else, but I enjoy it and keep it fun. I sold a few pens in the past that I actually felt guilty about charging as much as i did, because I knew the customer. On another note, in the beginning I felt my pens were not worth as much as other peoples so I spent lots of time making little money and it turned into work. So all I can offer is... Do what works for you and what makes you happy. No point in making this seem like work with no profit.

 

[ldb2000]

If you think your work is only worth $20 or you like working for $5 an hour go for it . Remember to add the time it takes to hunt the deer and get the antlers and the time it takes to prepare the cartridges then turn them into pens plus the price of the kit and supplies to turn it and sand it and finish it and assemble it . If you figure it all in even the $40 to $50 price isn't worth it but it is fun to do so ....

 

[Chasper]

IMHO there is only a vague relationship between the cost of the materials and the selling price of the pen. I've used up $20 worth of components on a pen that I don't think would sell for $20, and I've used scraps and a basic slim kit and made pens that have sold for $75. Creativity, good workmanship and a good back story are the components of a higher selling price much more than the cost of the kit and other supplies.

 

[Daniel]

As a rule of thumb, based on actual events. I figure anyone's first pen cost them $600. then you can start adding the cost of materials. I have no idea how much time or money you paid for the antler since you hunted it yourself. I suspect you paid considerable more than I would by buying it from a supplier. So if you sell that pen for $50 you are at a loss of $550. you need to make and sell 11 more pens at no additional cost to you to break even. of course in reality the cost continue to add up in the process of making 11 more pens so when all 12 of your first pens are made and sold you are at an out of pocket cost of say $1000. (shows, shipping, gotta haves, that new drill press cause you got frustrated with the cheap bench top one, whatever) you are now behind $400.
now you realice you are going to need to make an aweful lot of pens to catch up so you have to get organized. off to the hardware store for storage, shelving, new blades for something, a new something for your blades maybe. and God forbid you get bit with anything like the casting bug. of course you are starting to realize that $1.60 material pens do not sell nearly as well as $20.00 material pens so the cost per pen has sky rocketed.
Well I think you get the idea. So no you don't make a profit by selling your pen for $20. you don't make a profit by selling it at $50. You may eventually make a profit if you sell them at $100. But I wouldn't bet on it. it's a Hobby, the rule is you pay to play.

 

[KenV]

Mac - you are tending to confuse direct cost and value. Value is from the perspective of those who are acquiring an item. I have $50 in costs in some pens that I give away to special people on special occasions -- I also have cheap slimlines kits in the drawer that I use to experiment and try ideas with. Sometimes those ideas work and the result has value beyond the cost of the materials and time involved.

If you are a craftsman or artist in your efforts, or strive to be, you should not set the value of your creative efforts base on the cash flow, but rather on the skils and ideas you have developed. I do not sell anything for $20 -- regardless of cost, and some of the things I make are not for sale at any price.

You have to decide if you are a cheap hack, or are working to be a quality artist making fine work for others to appreciate and and value in thier lives. If you sound and price like a cheap hack, you probably are. If you work, act and price like a artist who provides good value and creative skills, you probably are.

So you tell us who and what you are?

 

[altaciii]

Well said Daniel!

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Well said!

AMEN!
You can't confuse cost of materials with selling price, if you think for one minuet that a $600
"BLACK PLASTIC" Mount Blanc has more than $20-$30 worth of materials in it if that....as the late Johnny Carson would say "NO,NO CAMEL BREATH"your paying for perceived value along with their cost of operating.​

Mac - you are tending to confuse direct cost and value. Value is from the perspective of those who are acquiring an item. I have $50 in costs in some pens that I give away to special people on special occasions -- I also have cheap slimlines kits in the drawer that I use to experiment and try ideas with. Sometimes those ideas work and the result has value beyond the cost of the materials and time involved.

If you are a craftsman or artist in your efforts, or strive to be, you should not set the value of your creative efforts base on the cash flow, but rather on the skils and ideas you have developed. I do not sell anything for $20 -- regardless of cost, and some of the things I make are not for sale at any price.

You have to decide if you are a cheap hack, or are working to be a quality artist making fine work for others to appreciate and and value in thier lives. If you sound and price like a cheap hack, you probably are. If you work, act and price like a artist who provides good value and creative skills, you probably are.

So you tell us who and what you are?

 

[keithlong]

Hey Mac,
I am new to pen turning, been doing it for only a couple of months. I am in it for the pleasure of creating some fine writing instruments, and watching the faces of people when you tell them that you made it yourself. I like to experiment also. I have sold only a couple of antler pens, to a co worker of my wife. When she asked me how to ask for the pens i told her 50.00 each, then my wife said to me, she wont pay that for them pens. I told her not to take anything less, that afternoon my wife came home with the cash and said, she did not even bat an eye, just paid for them and smiled. So i thought i would be able to order some more pens, WRONG, my daughter came home with a notice that said her college book costs 100.00. So i continue to make pens. It is a hobby for me. I do have an order for some cartridge pens and some desk pens to do next week. Like some of them have already said, it is up to you to decide what your craftsmanship is worth. Besides you are creating something that will be treasured for a lifetime. This is just my 2 cents worth.

 

[skiprat]

LOL, try this...
1. Pretend you don't make pens
2. You want a hobby that may pay for itself
3. Go to your shop and see whats there!!!!! Hey look!!! There's a lathe over there.....and some blanks over there in the corner and loads of other free stuff to get you started.

So now all you have to do is buy the requested kit and the rest of what you charge will sustain the hobby. It's a hobby remember, you were going to do it anyway even if you didn't sell the finished pen. :wink:

I think it spoils the fun of the hobby to keep trying to factor in all the tiny little costs like power and lights and labour time. Of course, if you want to run a business well that's a completely different story...........:biggrin:

 

[DozerMite]

I think it is ridiculous for anyone (not just penturners, but anyone ) to make a 400% profit on anything. Especially if you were going to do whatever it is you do, anyway. Your time is worth squat, if you were doing it anyway.
If anyone thinks that penturning is going to pay for all the equipment, materials, time involved, electricity, wear on tools, etc. they are a fool.
Unless you are a huge manufacturer that produces thousands and sells to large distributors all over the world, you will never get rich from this.
If you want to develope a business, your tax deductions, will help to pay for all your expenses.
Everyone complains about the price of gas and why it is so high while the oil companies are raking in billions of dollars of profit. Now justify why it is ok for anyone else to do the same. I would rather sell 2-3 pens a week at a 50% profit than that one pen every month or two for a 400% profit. Yes, I am doing more work, but I'm going to be doing it anyway, so I get to continue to do what I like doing rather than waiting for that one pen to sell to be able to make another. Just my $.02

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I think it is ridiculous for anyone (not just penturners, but anyone ) to make a 400% profit on anything.

A 400% profit on cost of goods in most manufacturing is VERY small but a 400% profit is huge and their-in lies the difference. Somewhere I had read that the avg. bottle of Coke cost Coke in supplies less than .04 and wholesale them @ 2.40 a 6 pack thats an 800% profit by your way of thinking. But that is very far from the truth now you need to factor in their machinery, labor, distribution, insurance, advertising,etc.,etc.

Especially if you were going to do whatever it is you do, anyway. Your time is worth squat, if you were doing it anyway.

Mike maybe your time is worth squat but please remember those of us that value our time. When I'm out in my shop I enjoy what I'm doing but if I intend to sell what I make then its work that needs to be paid for and the question asked was selling.

If anyone thinks that penturning is going to pay for all the equipment, materials, time involved, electricity, wear on tools, etc. they are a fool.
Unless you are a huge manufacturer that produces thousands and sells to large distributors all over the world, you will never get rich from this.
If you want to develope a business, your tax deductions, will help to pay for all your expenses.

Mike again speak for yourself, I have taken my hobby that I still enjoy and have had it pay for all my equipment, shop,and have put some money in the bank


Everyone complains about the price of gas and why it is so high while the oil companies are raking in billions of dollars of profit. Now justify why it is ok for anyone else to do the same. I would rather sell 2-3 pens a week at a 50% profit than that one pen every month or two for a 400% profit. Yes, I am doing more work, but I'm going to be doing it anyway, so I get to continue to do what I like doing rather than waiting for that one pen to sell to be able to make another. Just my $.02

Now I have no problem with anyone selling their product for what they think its worth but I do have one when they tell me I'm gouging the public as only I and my customers know the value of my product. Yes my time,expenses,insurance,mode of distribution, etc. are all cost involved in the production of my product. Theres a saying "I have no argument with those that sell cheaper then me for they know what their product is worth" .
By that same saying "I and my customers know what my pens are worth as I've sold right at a thousand in the last 2 1/2 years not 2-3 a eek for 50% profit or 1 or 2 a month for 400% by your way of figuring profit

 

[thewishman]

If anyone thinks that penturning is going to pay for all the equipment, materials, time involved, electricity, wear on tools, etc. they are a fool.

My first pen order paid for all of the tools I use and a nice profit beyond that. I treat my pens as a business that is also fun.

The nice thing about making pens is that each person can do what pleases him or her. The tent is big enough for all of us to do it the way we want to.

Make pens, be happy...

 

[ed4copies]

I think it is ridiculous for anyone (not just penturners, but anyone ) to make a 400% profit on anything. Especially if you were going to do whatever it is you do, anyway. Your time is worth squat, if you were doing it anyway.
If anyone thinks that penturning is going to pay for all the equipment, materials, time involved, electricity, wear on tools, etc. they are a fool.
Unless you are a huge manufacturer that produces thousands and sells to large distributors all over the world, you will never get rich from this.
If you want to develope a business, your tax deductions, will help to pay for all your expenses.
Everyone complains about the price of gas and why it is so high while the oil companies are raking in billions of dollars of profit. Now justify why it is ok for anyone else to do the same. I would rather sell 2-3 pens a week at a 50% profit than that one pen every month or two for a 400% profit. Yes, I am doing more work, but I'm going to be doing it anyway, so I get to continue to do what I like doing rather than waiting for that one pen to sell to be able to make another. Just my $.02

I have to ask!

If a product has NO cost and you sell it, your profit is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of the selling price. How does one make FOUR hundred percent??

Now, in these days when every player on a football field gives 110% (which is ALSO impossible), I realize math means LITTLE. But, can we please accept standard business terms, so I can attempt to follow your logic???

Thanks!

 

[hunter-27]

I price it as it would cost me if I had to buy it. You might get a follow-up order and have to purchase the stuff. Pricing has already been set, no problems.

 

[ed4copies]

I price it as it would cost me if I had to buy it. You might get a follow-up order and have to purchase the stuff. Pricing has already been set, no problems.

Landon makes an excellent point!! IF you sell ONE pen, the customer MAY come back for more. I buy the vast majority of my kits in hundred lots - which earns a discount. But I have always priced my PENS assuming the single unit price for the kit (which makes a substantial difference on an Emperor or the like). BUT, if I don't do that and the customer asks for a Black Ti centerband, I have to go out and buy the kit. I MAY have to PAY the one kit price.

This, and the "cost of money", "deferred interest", "opportunity costs" and other monitary terms are rarely considered here. Nor do they NEED to be. But, if you give away your work, YOU are setting it's VALUE.

Unless it's going to a loved one, the customer will not perceive a value, if they get it as a "cheap pen".

FWIW

 

[bassfishingpro]

I agree with all of you. Now for my opinion. If you feel your pens aren't worth any monetary value outside the raw cost of materials, don't charge. If you feel that your Time has value, charge. Plain and SIMPLE.

 

[DozerMite]

There are those that have made enough to pay for their stuff, but nobody should expect or assume that it will. A large enough order at the extreme prices I have seen surely would take care of it. It is not the norm though.
Why do you think your time is so valuable? If you aren't turning pens, you would be doing what, sitting on the couch? Should you gain a profit for that? It's the same time, you are just doing something you enjoy and if you are doing it anyway, why do you think it is more valuable time? Your life is nothing but time, do you think you should make a huge profit for you being alive with time?

If you have $20 in a pen and you sell that pen for $100, that is 400% profit. This is just an example. I would never expect someone to pay a $100 for a $20 pen, I don't care how much anyone thinks their time or craftsmanship is worth. If you can find people to pay that, good for you, but I wouldn't gouge (as you said) anyone because my conscience won't allow it. If you think by a high price, your pens are automatically higher quality, wake up. The kits we all use are the same, the materials the same. So you did your segment different, or a different combination of colors, or whatever, it's still the same pen in the end.
Why do you think this country is so #%$&*@ up? GREED!

If I and anyone else was to make a pen with the same kit and blank, I had a $25 price and they have a $100 price, most will ask why the price difference. I tell them that the other person thinks they need to be payed that much more for their time, who's pen is going home with a new owner?


/rant

 

[ed4copies]

The title "bassfishingpro" brings to mind another "profession".

I go out on Lake Michigan from time to time with a "Captain" who is paid far more than the cost of operating HIS boat to "take me to the fish".

Shouldn't he do this for FREE??? After all, he enjoys being on the water or he wouldn't have the boat!!! So, if he enjoys doing it, he shouldn't CHARGE ME, should he???

(Oh, CaptG, this is NOT serious!!!)

 

[ed4copies]

If you have $20 in a pen and you sell that pen for $100, that is 400% profit.

/rant

Actually, that is an 80% profit.

Selling price: 100
Cost 20
Profit (ignoring all other overhead, selling costs, etc) $80

Profit divided by selling price = profit percentage
80/100= 80%

Business 101 dismissed, till the next period

 

[DozerMite]

OK, bad math. I'm hot and tired and tried doing it in my head and believe me, if you were in there, it would have sounded right.
It's still a shame to take advantage of others that way. I know, it's the american way. Just like selling a segmented blank. It's a piece of material that is cut and a piece of material glued between. Repeat this around the circumference and all of a sudden you have a $90 blank? Come on, really?
I'm only referencing pens because that's what this is, but it is the same way with everything. Sorry I don't see it the way that some here do, but I have never been one to do that sort of thing. The guy asked for opinions and I gave mine. If that hurts anybody's feelings... sorry about your luck.
It's an opinion!

 

[altaciii]

Keep it going guys. This is more fun than the day I'm having at work.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I now see Mikes point, I have chosen to make a small living out of doing something I like to do so I shouldn't expect to recoup any of the money spent over and above the cost of the same kit he uses,the same blank he uses and the time I spend making the same pen he makes is time that nobody should be paid for because after all what else would I be doing buy sitting on my a$$. So lets see if I can continue going to shows to make this living at 80% profit when I have $20 in materials and sell it for $100.I just gave the promoter of the show $550 for the 2 days, I traveled 450 miles to get to this show 3 days at a motel @ $75 a night, lets not count eating out for 5 days, yes 5 days for a 2 day show is the norm. You have one day travel to the show, one day to set up 2 days for the show and one day travel back equals 5 days so these 5 days I would have had to eat anyway (but not at a restaurant and at home for at least 50% less) and should I pay myself for these days, heck no what else but staying home sitting on my a$$ would I be doing anyway.I should never expect to recoup my investment in show gear, now on my 4th canopy in 2 1/2 years well over $1000, $500 worth of custom table covers, $350 worth of lighting, $300 worth of fold-up tables, $500 worth of displays, it just ticks me to have someone who thinks that because he sits at home on his ass when hes not turning that is what we all do. Now my one big question to you is do you have a job and dose that job pay you for coming to work putting in a days work when after all your time ain't worth squat according to you.
At this point I think I need to go to the shop which is 103 degrees and cool off.

 

[Mac]

When I buy a new style kit ,to try ,I check several webb sites to get ideals for pricing ,as I am doing this as a hobby ,but as a selfsupporting one ,(I want to make a profit!)
Heres My ?. If I am making bullet pens with deer antler on top and I killed the deer to get the antler or it was given to me,and bought the 308 brass from a buddy for a nickel a piece
and have $1.60 in the kits,to make a profit do I sell for $45 to $50 the prices that I found
on other sites or just sell for $20 and call that a profit ? better think before you answer!

I think some of you guys have gotten off point, you might want to read my post again.
I did'nt say anything about quailty or quantity. I make my pens (one) at a time I use CA finish and according to my wife I am to critical ,of my own work.
Now thats been answered. I still have the orginal ?
Also I am not retired with a check coming in every month.I work every day as I work for myself, and do very much like making pens and other things on the lathe. but I have to justify what I spend ,I guess that comes from being selfemployed.

 

[ed4copies]

Mac,

If you want ONE answer, here it is:

You have to please YOU!!

This forum is composed of hundreds of people. Therefore, we should have hundreds of opinions -- NONE of which should dictate YOUR actions or attitudes. YOU have to please YOU.

 

[hunter-27]

I think some of you guys have gotten off point, you might want to read my post again.
I did'nt say anything about quailty or quantity. I make my pens (one) at a time I use CA finish and according to my wife I am to critical ,of my own work.
Now thats been answered. I still have the orginal ?
Also I am not retired with a check coming in every month.I work every day as I work for myself, and do very much like making pens and other things on the lathe. but I have to justify what I spend ,I guess that comes from being selfemployed.

Just because I think I'm right , I'm referring you back to reply #17(Mine). Kidding aside, I think it is a simple and highly accurate reply to your original question.

 

[ed4copies]

OK, bad math. I'm hot and tired and tried doing it in my head and believe me, if you were in there, it would have sounded right.
It's still a shame to take advantage of others that way. I know, it's the american way. Just like selling a segmented blank. It's a piece of material that is cut and a piece of material glued between. Repeat this around the circumference and all of a sudden you have a $90 blank? Come on, really?
I'm only referencing pens because that's what this is, but it is the same way with everything. Sorry I don't see it the way that some here do, but I have never been one to do that sort of thing. The guy asked for opinions and I gave mine. If that hurts anybody's feelings... sorry about your luck.
It's an opinion!

Just to be clear, speaking only for myself - I ENCOURAGE you to HAVE and defend YOUR opinion. I respect those who think differently from me.

And, no you are VERY UNLIKELY to "hurt my feelings". If we meet someday, I look forward to sharing good conversation and I will buy the "refreshment of choice".

No corpse, no foul.:biggrin:

 

[DozerMite]

Mac,

If you want ONE answer, here it is:

You have to please YOU!!

This forum is composed of hundreds of people. Therefore, we should have hundreds of opinions -- NONE of which should dictate YOUR actions or attitudes. YOU have to please YOU.

This is true and agree with Ed.

However Ed, I gave it some more thought and I still think 400% is correct.

Spent $20

Receive $40 = 100%
Receive $60 = 200%
and so on.

Math 101 over 'til next time.

 

[ed4copies]

This is true and agree with Ed.

However Ed, I gave it some more thought and I still think 400% is correct.

Spent $20

Receive $40 = 100%
Receive $60 = 200%
and so on.

Math 101 over 'til next time.

Fortunately, our language does have SOME definitions.

What you show above is the "markup" percentage.
You can say you have a 400% (usually expressed as "four time" or 4x) markup and you would be accurate. (I will yield to any 'accountant-types who tell us this is actually a 5x markup, cause I don't use this number so I don't know how "cost" is handled in the calculation) A valid number, used in business, but different from profit percentage, which must be shown by EVERY publicly-traded company. Therefore there is a need for consistency of definition.

 

[thewishman]

If we meet someday, I look forward to sharing good conversation and I will buy the "refreshment of choice".

My refreshment of choice is a shower of $100 bills.

 

[aggromere]

My two cents worth. The first 20 or so pens I made I gave away. Some of those people showed them to their friends and the next 20 or so I sold for $30 to $40. (Mostly cigar pens, churchills and sketch pencils). Now I'm up to selling them for $50 to $75 a pen. I crank out a bunch of acrylic satin finish cigars and still sell them for $35, but now I'm able to make pens I like. Hopefully I will get to $100 a pen soon. My problem is not selling them to the people that want them, it is finding enough people that want them so I figured I would sell them cheap at first and give some away to try and get the word out.

 

[ed4copies]

My refreshment of choice is a shower of $100 bills.

I believe you forgot, Chris!!!

The "Resinator" was the "CopyCat" in CB days. I can not only produce $100 bills, I can make them 11 x 17 or 2 x 3!!!!

Your wish is my command!!

 

[Robert A.]

Shoot I traded 6 slimlines made out of mahogany for a 14in jet bandsaw.And to top it off I got the wood out of HIS dumpster.Do I feel bad NO.Did 6 more for a 17in 16speed delta drillpress.Same deal the wood was out of HIS dumpster.Again do I feel bad NO.The customer got what HE wanted and I got what I needed.There are some here complaining about price.To me what you get for your pens has alot to do with the market in your area.I've got 2 antler pens to deliver now.African Mahogany tops with antler bottoms and there slimlines.Lets see a friend gave me the antler I got the wood out of the DUMPSTER again.When the customer asked how much I told him $65ea.The man didn't even bat an eye.Said to make him 2. If I was 20miles up the road I could ask $75 AND GET IT.It all depends on where you are.Just like any job the more you like it the better you want to be at it.


So to answer your question sell your pens for what ever you can get for them.Just keep in mind YOUR market area.

Good luck with your sales.And like was said do what makes YOU happy!

 

[Greg O'Sherwood]

Someone wanted to hear from an accountant??

Profit percentage is calculated as:

profit/cost x 100 = pp

in other words, if you use $20 of materials, and sell at $50, then your profit is expressed as:

30/20x100= 66.7?% profit percentage


Accounting 101 session is over. Let me know if you also want gross or net profit rate info also...

HTH/HAND

 

[hunter-27]

Someone wanted to hear from an accountant??

Profit percentage is calculated as:

profit/cost x 100 = pp

in other words, if you use $20 of materials, and sell at $50, then your profit is expressed as:

30/20x100= 66.7?% profit percentage


Accounting 101 session is over. Let me know if you also want gross or net profit rate info also...

HTH/HAND

TY!!!!!!!!!! :biggrin: 1 piece of the puzzle laid to rest.

 

[Greg O'Sherwood]

If I may include one more particular,

There are various types of value. For our purposes, I'll address three of them that are being brought up here.

THe value that a manufacturer/seller places on a product is the "potential value". Is is known as that until he finds a buyer.

The value that a buyer wants to buy a desired item for is the "perceived value", until he finds a seller.

The value that they arrive at an actual sale at, or that an item sells for, is the "MARKET VALUE".

All of this is meaningless outside of a marketing philosophy.


I think the OP knew this, which is why he phrased his question the way he did, including the phrase "better think before you answer!". This always makes for lively conversation, eh???


:wink:

 

[rjwolfe3]

After following all of this, I have one conclusion:








My head hurts.


(Now where did I put my drink!)

 

[hunter-27]

If I may include one more particular,

There are various types of value. For our purposes, I'll address three of them that are being brought up here.

THe value that a manufacturer/seller places on a product is the "potential value". Is is known as that until he finds a buyer.

The value that a buyer wants to buy a desired item for is the "perceived value", until he finds a seller.

The value that they arrive at an actual sale at, or that an item sells for, is the "MARKET VALUE".

All of this is meaningless outside of a marketing philosophy.


I think the OP knew this, which is why he phrased his question the way he did, including the phrase "better think before you answer!". This always makes for lively conversation, eh???


:wink:

GEE, it is almost like you think you are a businessman or something. :wink::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:VERY good post.