High end kits disappearing...

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killer-beez

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I have noticed that suppliers of high end kits are disappearing at an alarming rate. CSUSA seems to be one of the only resellers of the more expensive kits and even their high end kits are disappearing. I have been on the Dayacom web site and see they have tons of high end kits but won't sell to the public or even US distributers. Why you wouldn't sell to a country with the most disposable income in the world I'll never know. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks…
 
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Chasper

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I hadn't noticed, other than Emperor and Jr Emperor from CSUSA, which high end kits have been dropped by which suppliers?
 

Smitty37

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PSI

PSI seems to have added a couple - Nouveau Sceptre and Art Deco. My best guess would be that in an off-economy the sale of high end pens is down some and so the sale of high end kits would be too. And, they are costly to hold in inventory.
 

Smitty37

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Dayacom

I have noticed that suppliers of high end kits are disappearing at an alarming rate. CSUSA seems to be one of the only resellers of the more expensive kits and even their high end kits are disappearing. I have been on the Dayacom web site and see they have tons of high end kits but won't sell to the public or even US distributers. Why you wouldn't sell to a country with the most disposable income in the world I'll never know. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks…

If you have a website and a business license Dayacom will probably sell to you. They seem to want to deal only with businesses including distributors, in fact on their website they have at least a couple of items they are looking for distributors for.
 

hewunch

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The retro is only going away in the fountain pen and the copper kit. The Rhodium Roller and 10k rollerball are still available
 

ed4copies

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Business Mathematics

Could be because they have to import them by the thousands, and only a few of us are buying them 1 or 2 at a time.

Dead on!

Also, the one or two who are buying want different "flavors". To handle the Emperor, you need to stock gold and black ti, fountain and rollerball ---4 styles. BUT some want the SMALLER version---so you need to stock those same choices in the Jr. Emperor---4 more styles. Now you have 4000 pens---representing over $100,000. You will probably sell less than 1000 pens per year. So, your average cash in use is $50,000 for four years.

Takes VERY deep pockets. And very few who can AFFORD such a deal are dumb enough to BUY it.

But they will probably find SOMEONE!!!
 

wood-of-1kind

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Somehow they're missing the point that the kits are overpriced to begin
with. The difference in manufacturing costs between a Statesman and
an Emperor are negligible, but the prices don't reflect this.


Charlie, methinks you're bang-on with your assessment. Too great of a pricing disparity between far too many kits. Sometimes there's no apparent rhyme or reason as to how price points are set.
 

Russianwolf

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Dead on!

Also, the one or two who are buying want different "flavors". To handle the Emperor, you need to stock gold and black ti, fountain and rollerball ---4 styles. BUT some want the SMALLER version---so you need to stock those same choices in the Jr. Emperor---4 more styles. Now you have 4000 pens---representing over $100,000. You will probably sell less than 1000 pens per year. So, your average cash in use is $50,000 for four years.

Takes VERY deep pockets. And very few who can AFFORD such a deal are dumb enough to BUY it.

But they will probably find SOMEONE!!!
Which is exactly why Aaron only stocks and offers to us what he himself uses for his business. He doesn't play the guessing game of what do we want, just satisfies his own needs and allows us to buy in IF we want. If I decide to make that kind of investment, I'll be approaching it the same way.
 

ironman

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As I've watched kit prices going up and up and up, I figured they'd raise
the prices until we stopped buying and then back them down a little till
we started buying again. Then the prices would stabilize there. But this time
they've taken another tack; dropping the higher end kits.
Somehow they're missing the point that the kits are overpriced to begin
with. The difference in manufacturing costs between a Statesman and
an Emperor are negligible, but the prices don't reflect this.

How do you know the manufacturing costs of the pens. and usually if companies are raising the prices of pen kits it means the cost of production is going up.
 

jskeen

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And, I'm sure that Dayacom has inventory issues as well. It seems that dayacom is not necessarily a monolithic producer of these products either. They sub out different components to smaller producers, a few thousand clips over here, a few thousand centerbands there, a few thousand endcaps to the other mom and pop producer who have to tool up, get supplies, do the initial quality control and finally produce a run of parts. The fewer parts in a run, the more of the initial costs have to be covered on each part. And lets face it, a statesman clip with the flat ring and undecorated front is MUCH cheaper to produce than the ones for the emperor/lotus/imperial with the thicker ring, the insert in the front. The cast, polished and plated inserts themselves are probably subcontracted yet again by the clip maker, and they have to be set up and produced.

Dayacom gathers all these parts together and assembles the kits, then deals with the nightmarish chinese government export department, and ships them to the distributers.

It's one thing to have a staff of a few skilled craftsmen who can hand produce prototypes of pen kits to take pictures of and put on a webpage, but you can bet dayacom don't have 500 of each of those kits sitting on a shelf eating up their capital. At most they have spec'd them out to their suppliers to get a rough price on a certain number of parts.

Let's face it folks, even at 35 or 40 or 50 dollars a kit, the kits we use are still very economical for the complexity and cost of production. Otherwise we would not really be able to do the fairly limited work of adding material to the barrels, assembling them and sell them for a profit at all.

As with any modern system of distributed production, the network is complex, slow, and very price sensitive to quantity of order, but incredibly efficient within it's optimum parameters. It has also taken decades to develop. It may be annoying to not be able to get exactly what we want when and how we would like it, but without the system, flaws and all, the few of us with the time, skill and equipment to produce totally kitless pens like Brian and Ken and a few others would be the only people with anything to talk about on here :)
 

ed4copies

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James,

As you know, I see most things as a "marketing guy".

I believe CSUSA has realized that the MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity) exceeds the annual demand for the product.

HOWEVER, I suspect there is a HUGE bubble when the kit is introduced. SO, introducing a NEW kit every year or so COULD be justified.

That "newly designed kit" will also erode the demand for the Emperor (and any other "Old" kits). So the math gets WORSE, not better for the "Old" kits.
 

ed4copies

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Analogy:

GM sold 1.1 million cars in the last six months (profitably for the first time in a long time.

What do you suppose those cars would cost, if only 2000 were made and sold???
 

SDB777

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Analogy:

GM sold 1.1 million cars in the last six months (profitably for the first time in a long time.

What do you suppose those cars would cost, if only 2000 were made and sold???

Are you saying that a car is a direct comparison for a pen kit?

Apples and orange thing....doesn't work. Unless everyone 'needs' a pen to get to work?



Scott (trying to get back to the topic) B
 

ed4copies

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No, my point was supposed to be production cost of 2000 vs 1.1 million.

I have said before that there are many more moving parts on a car---sorry I brought it up--you're right!!!
 

SDB777

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No, my point was supposed to be production cost of 2000 vs 1.1 million.

I have said before that there are many more moving parts on a car---sorry I brought it up--you're right!!!


Production costs for a Chinese product usually isn't as high as people think. I would imagine more costs are incurred with all the 'middle men', shipping, the next guy, postage.....

If a product is over-priced with all the 'doom-n-gloom' on the news, people will tend to hold on to their expendable cash until something is absolutely needed....and only then, will they go searching for the best deal.


Scott (everyone has to have a finger in the pie) B
 

Russianwolf

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No, my point was supposed to be production cost of 2000 vs 1.1 million.

I have said before that there are many more moving parts on a car---sorry I brought it up--you're right!!!

at the same time, you can use a specific car model to illustrate the demand curve of a product.

Take the PT Cruiser. Look at the sales numbers for th first year, second, all the way up to the most recent year. What you'll most likely see is a peak in the first couple years with a gradual reduction to the most recent time. They recently announced discontinuing the model due to the fact that annual sales aren't keeping the model profitable.

I would wager that the pen kits are similar in that regard. high demand when first introduced, tapering off until sales get so slow as to make the holding cost more than the profits realized.

When the demand reduces you have two choices. Offer it at a discount, or stop offering it.
 

makaiolani

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Hi guys,

I just came across this post and I thought I'd chime in. The high end kits are very expensive to carry. Minimum order is 500 of each plating. Let's say a high end kit cost me 18. That's 9000 just for one plating which doesn't include customs and shipping which usually tacks on another 10%. That's 30k for three platings for just 1500 kits. Crazy.

Anyway I usually carry kits that are not too ornate. I feel that the beauty should come from the materials put into the pen. I'm saving for a replacement for the retros or I might be changing the Havana Fountains slightly.
 

PenMan1

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As I've watched kit prices going up and up and up, I figured they'd raise
the prices until we stopped buying and then back them down a little till
we started buying again. Then the prices would stabilize there. But this time
they've taken another tack; dropping the higher end kits.
Somehow they're missing the point that the kits are overpriced to begin
with. The difference in manufacturing costs between a Statesman and
an Emperor are negligible, but the prices don't reflect this.


Yep. I think the missing high end pens will eventually hurt the big resellers. And they priced themselves right out of the market.

In the past, I made huge CUSA orders. Now, without the Imperials, Lotus, among other missing sets, basicly I buy the $9.99 Micromesh pads from them. I can buy Jr's and other comparable sets from other sources at much reduced pricing.
 

greggas

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James,

As you know, I see most things as a "marketing guy".

I believe CSUSA has realized that the MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity) exceeds the annual demand for the product.

HOWEVER, I suspect there is a HUGE bubble when the kit is introduced. SO, introducing a NEW kit every year or so COULD be justified.

That "newly designed kit" will also erode the demand for the Emperor (and any other "Old" kits). So the math gets WORSE, not better for the "Old" kits.

Ed You have have hit the nail on the head .
The problem is that CUSA has only eliminated high end kist over the last two years and have not added any new kits leaving a huge void IMHO
 

jskeen

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James,

As you know, I see most things as a "marketing guy".

I believe CSUSA has realized that the MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity) exceeds the annual demand for the product.

HOWEVER, I suspect there is a HUGE bubble when the kit is introduced. SO, introducing a NEW kit every year or so COULD be justified.

That "newly designed kit" will also erode the demand for the Emperor (and any other "Old" kits). So the math gets WORSE, not better for the "Old" kits.

Also, I tend to think that this is what they were planning to do with the lotus and then the imperial. They probably had built up a pretty good backstock of emperors meeting that minimum annual purchase to keep their exclusive on them, and decided not to get any more. But then I don't believe either the lotus or imperial sold even as well as the Emperor had. I suspect there is a beancounter somewhere at csusa trying to decide when to pull the trigger on the next $40+ kit. He's just not quite convinced the demand is there yet.

My opinion only, YMMV
 

OKLAHOMAN

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Ken, This northern plastic man is great but I buy my kits at the deepest discount(100kits) from CSUSA and him and his princess of a wife as much as they may like me are in business to make a profit.....:biggrin:
 

Woodlvr

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Just curious about the new Venus kit for $43.99- It looks like a Gent with engraving- Is this a replacement for the Emporer types? I can see why it is so hard to stock these kits.
 

bitshird

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Just curious about the new Venus kit for $43.99- It looks like a Gent with engraving- Is this a replacement for the Emporer types? I can see why it is so hard to stock these kits.

Mike, to me it doesn't even look close, it's a Statesman with a "Glass Crystal in the cap and Glass crystals set in the center band" The Chinese must think we are a bunch of Crows that will go after any thin that glitters.
 

OKLAHOMAN

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It's a retrofitted Jr. Statesmen even uses the same bushings haven't seen one in person yet but willing to bet the rollerball nib could be replaced with the fountain pen nib from the other Jr.'s
Just curious about the new Venus kit for $43.99- It looks like a Gent with engraving- Is this a replacement for the Emporer types? I can see why it is so hard to stock these kits.
 

Woodlvr

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Thanks guys. I was browsing the new products at CSUSA and noticed the Venus and was curious. It is not a kit that I would purchase. I have to get up my courage to try my gator blanks and let them go, Roy your gator pen looked great on the kit you chose but I could not pull that one off.
 

Kev

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Amos, you beat me to it.. I am sure David would appreciate some international orders.

Kev

We have a couple of well respected Aussie Suppliers that will ship to USA
1. GPWWoodturning.com au Has Emperor, Etc
2. Timberbits.com has some High end pen kits also
Amos:)
 

PenMan1

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Andy,just curious where are you getting Jr.'s at a reduced price.

Roy, there's this guy up north that saves you a buck or two on these kits, He's an OK guy, but his Wife is a real Princess.

Dammit Ken! You are a great guy, but you can't keep a secret for squat.

Roy, Somebody has to fill the void for the guys like you and me. Ed is working on that for us. If he can't, I'll go direct. a major PITA, but very doable... I bought direct before and it ain't ropcket science.
 

PenMan1

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We have a couple of well respected Aussie Suppliers that will ship to USA
1. GPWWoodturning.com au Has Emperor, Etc
2. Timberbits.com has some High end pen kits also
Amos:)


Yes, they ship to the "colonies", but so far the pricing is WAY out of line... making it "reasonable" to explore a direct purchasing agreement.

If your look at it seriosly, I make really only 3 "kit" pens....1500 pieces....I cna make and sell most of them... the others I can sell.
 

PenMan1

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My conversatons (e-mails) so far, is that 500 piece mimimums is a "negotiating point". China's economy( yes, dayacom is China, too) ain't "all that" either.

In reality, you can direct buy at 250 piece minimums...AS LONG AS YOU BUY MORE THAN ONE PRODUCT. I have NO intention of becoming a "kit" seller,(too much unproductive time and too much loading language "translators"!) However, those of use who make a LOT of one or two "kits" would be stupid NOT to help out a fellow IAP member keep the product that we use. I miss the IMP and the Lotus, but as long as we are at it, might as well get some JR's..
 
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PenMan1

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Just curious about the new Venus kit for $43.99- It looks like a Gent with engraving- Is this a replacement for the Emporer types? I can see why it is so hard to stock these kits.

For $45 a kit, I'll hire a jeweler facing hard times to investment cast my pieces. I buy buy no new "stuff" and he has a reliable partner. I have never and WILL never pay $40 for "bright work"!

Now, if Schmidt refills go above $2, then I'll quit! Some companies (WOODCRAFT, et. at) have been raping us long enough!
 
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