Help with tubes for a frustrated kid(and dad)

[jbo_c]

Got my son a lathe last Christmas and he has been merrily turning away since then and has gotten very good. He has given many pens as gifts and sold a handful as well.

In an effort to earn some money, he's been out beating the bushes to get some orders for Christmas. Well, work started to pay off and he actually got his first order for 20 pens for corporate gifts!

Long story short, the request was for turquoise stabilized box elder. so we ordered the material from Penn State. It arrived the week before last and we set to work. About five of the blanks had very poor penetration of color, so had to go back to PS for resolution(not too happy so far, but that's another thread). Fast forward to starting to turn.

He's having about an 80% blow out rate on the wood. I thought maybe it was the glue, but we've tried three different glues at this point with the same results - 5 minute epoxy in the twin tube configuration, high quality boat building epoxy, and Gorilla Glue. Last round, I did the gluing myself in case it was something about his technique but the same results.

We've :
Tried multiple glues
Worked at multiple lathe speeds
Slowed his work down as much as possible
Changed to a brand new carbide blade

It's killing me to see him so frustrated. I'd have thrown something out the window by now, but he's being a real trooper. However, at this point, what was going to be a project with about $150-200 profit for him is now going to net him in the neighborhood of $10-$20 if we can't improve his success rate.

Would appreciate any help the community could give.

Thanks.

Jbo

 

[Jim Burr]

BEB is very soft wood. May want to think about having them re-stabilized as stabilized blanks seldom blow out.

 

[jbo_c]

My wife keeps asking about the wood since at least some of it did not seem to have been stabilized fully. I didn't think so.

So how do I convince PS that it's the wood and not our technique? As alluded to before, I've been far from impressed with the service we have gotten(in fact, with the money he's spent there vs the response, my wife and I have told him he needs to shop somewhere else.

Thanks.

Jbo

 

[Cloven]

When you say blow out, do you mean the wood blank itself is shattering? Or since you mention tubes, do you mean that the brass tube is separating from the blank? An 80% failure rate is crazy high. When I glue my tubes into wood, I use thick CA. When I glue into acrylic or tru-stone, I use a lepage pro strength two part epoxy, and I haven't had the tubes separate yet.
When I turn, I turn my speed up as high as the machine can go and take light cuts (round carbide tool). A slow speed was just asking for catches.

 

[ed4copies]

PM sent with an idea.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

They must have been the crappiest stabilization ever. The lack of color penetration should be a clue to that.

Does he have experience turning brittle / tricky woods? What tool does he use?

 

[jbo_c]

Cloven: The wood is shattering and coming off of the tube.
(Incidentally, he is roughing the tubes with 80 grit paper before gluing. Forgot to mention that earlier.)
Ed4: Thanks. Replied
Dan: He has tried acrylics and sworn them off due to issues with shattering, but never had any trouble with wood before. He uses the tool with the interchangeable carbide blades. (Pen Genie maybe?) I'll post pictures of some of the blanks if I can.

PS. Dan - I think you helped back about this time last year when I was trying to decide whether to start him on this or not. He has loved it. Thanks for the advice.

Jbo

 

[jbo_c]

Just a note, he just finished turning a razor from a different wood with no issues whatsoever.

Jbo

 

[jbo_c]

Here are a few of the worst. Another 6-8 had a lack of full penetration, but a little better than these. The rest looked OK(though seeing these made me skeptical about how they would be).

 

[edstreet]

Got my son a lathe last Christmas and he has been merrily turning away since then and has gotten very good. He has given many pens as gifts and sold a handful as well.

In an effort to earn some money, he's been out beating the bushes to get some orders for Christmas. Well, work started to pay off and he actually got his first order for 20 pens for corporate gifts!

Long story short, the request was for turquoise stabilized box elder. so we ordered the material from Penn State. It arrived the week before last and we set to work. About five of the blanks had very poor penetration of color, so had to go back to PS for resolution(not too happy so far, but that's another thread). Fast forward to starting to turn.

He's having about an 80% blow out rate on the wood. I thought maybe it was the glue, but we've tried three different glues at this point with the same results - 5 minute epoxy in the twin tube configuration, high quality boat building epoxy, and Gorilla Glue. Last round, I did the gluing myself in case it was something about his technique but the same results.

We've :
Tried multiple glues
Worked at multiple lathe speeds
Slowed his work down as much as possible
Changed to a brand new carbide blade

It's killing me to see him so frustrated. I'd have thrown something out the window by now, but he's being a real trooper. However, at this point, what was going to be a project with about $150-200 profit for him is now going to net him in the neighborhood of $10-$20 if we can't improve his success rate.

Would appreciate any help the community could give.

Thanks.

Jbo

Many may not like what I mention but here goes. This is clearly a method problem and very unlikely a material problem or a tooling problem. Quite likely how the chisel is being applied to the wood, the angle/direction/cant/yawl and all that other wholesome goodness crap we call technical details. Here is some breakdown for you to digest.

1) grats on the orders. glad to see things like that happen


2) turquoise stabilized box elder, lets see, soft wood that must be stabilized (good and proper) to be woth anything and not cause massive headaches and wallet burn. More often than not I see poor quality stabilized jobs and have had a numerous head butting sessions about this very topic. However with the little information given to go on I will have to decline to say it seems to be the problem here. HOWEVER, I will have to add the material is box elder which is a softer material and demands a different approach than say something stupidly hard, i.e. bastogne walnut (bastard walnut, a.k.a. paradox walnut)


3) You mentioned obtained the blanks from PSI but there's no indication of WHO stabilized the blanks, or died. You also failed to show any images of the blanks that have exploded, chunks or even the lathe setup. All of these help greatly in finding the root problem of what is going on. Also the more info you provide the better more clear the picture is.


4) 80% blow out rate is unacceptable in most cases. Baring testing, theory developing, production development, product development, product testing and similar cases having 80% out is expensive. In my shop I have a rule. One mishap, goof or the like and it all gets shut down, I come in side and analyze what happened, why it happened, what I did wrong, what I need to do about it and change things accordingly. I break it down to the technical level and go over it step by step, cause and effect (domino effect). This not only can save your LIFE but it will also save your wallet and prolong the life of your equipment.


5) glue: you mentioned 5 min expoxy (garbage), 'high quality' boat building expoxy (er?) and gorila glue (so-so but can be good). None of these are what I would classify as 'superb' but the gorila glue can be quite good if used properly. This is another point that we do not know about. When you are bonding 2 materials the GAP makes a critical difference not only in what agent you use but how you do things. I.E. gorila glue is GARBAGE when it comes to gaps in the material to be bonded. 5 minute expoxy is GARBAGE when it comes to HEAT and STRENGTH.


6) lathe speed: sometimes it can help but more often than not it's not the problem. I will commend you on changing the speed as sometimes faster is good, sometimes slower is good, depends on what you are working with. What does become the problem is ....


7) "Changed to a brand new carbide blade" replacing an old dull bit with a new dull bit just includes more $ to the mix and makes it shiny since it's new. Yes new carbide bits while they might cut and do an ok/good job are not sharp by no stretch of the imagination. Same with new chisels, they to are not sharp when you buy them. Both really needs to be sharpened good and proper to have good healthy results in any material.


8) Sanding. If you have problem materials then often the case can be solved very quickly and with very little problems by sanding. Not only is new sandpaper sharp but it can be replaced quickly, fast and way cheaper than chisels and carbide tips. Nor does it require expert knowledge in how to sharpen. There are various methods you can use like the hand drill inserts for sandpaper, **ANGLE GRINDERS**, I even had the fortune to watch someone do wood turning with a sand blaster.

In fact these will help you out greatly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L6dIRD1zHg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQx6qru68EQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prA3F57D8A0

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f30/blowouts-my-solution-110460/



9) There are plenty of video's out there on various methods, techniques and how to setups. The one key factor that I feel every single end user should gain is a good clear understanding of WHAT happens when each process is applied. Break it down as for what you are doing, how it affects the material you are working with, how it reacts and make corrections accordingly. Learning to READ the material is the nature of the beast. This is and will always be the continue learning experience with any turner.



One final thing to say, I was actually encouraged to add this blurb. I am trying to help and while many may have wanted to post something they have seemed to bite their tongue and moved on. I wanted to shed some light on a very annoying problem and point out what was very obvious and mention that every one of us has gone thru periods like this in our careers, there's nothing to be ashamed of either.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Well, I'd say at least part of the problem is that he needs to expand his toolbox, both literally and figuratively.

You understand that good stabilizing turns wood into almost an acrylic? Well a combo of the two.

If he hasn't been able to turn acrylic materials (which type is a valid variable - they are all different ) he needs to increase his skill set.

Also, my opinion (others may disagree) is that he needs to have a skew in the arsenal, even if using the carbide deal most of the time. The $15 pennstate oval skew and a diamond hone will get him set up there.

If I have a brittle material it's right to skew regardless. If I had one blank blow up, I wouldn't even give consideration to using the carbide tool on the next one. Skew!

Another option is the flap disc grinder. It's dusty but it works.

Are they blowing on the way to round or after?

 

[jbo_c]

Thanks, EdStreet. Always willing to learn. That's how it works.

1. I was pretty proud of the order too.
2. Good info. Wish I'd known before he ordered.
3. PSI Stabilized and Dyed
4. Yes, probably should have come here earlier, but since we glue a couple of pens worth at a time, seemed like the die was cast early on. Posted pics of the blanks as you were posting. Will post some pics of the broken ones.
5. Boat building epoxy is very high quality true epoxy and has far stronger secondary bonding properties than most off the shelf 'epoxy', which is actually polyester based.(and I agree it's crap, but it seems to be commonly used for this purpose)
6. Don't get why changing to a new blade would be a problem.
7. I feel certain at this stage of the game, the new carbide blade is far sharper than I could consistently get any blade. In my ignorance, I didn't realize you could sharpen carbide blades(?).
8. Are you suggesting he turn using sandpaper? Maybe I'm reading this one wrong.
9. Yes, I'm an info hog when it comes to this kind of thing. But I haven't seen any videos on dissecting failures. I'll check the links you provided.

Thanks again for the response. What it lacks in finesse, it carries in thought and intent. I appreciate that.

Jbo

 

[jbo_c]

Dan, these are breaking after round, when he's nearly finished.

I've wondered if it wasn't an issue with the hole drilled too large(I think 'street alluded to this in his post). But I'm drilling with a 7mm acrylic bit on a drill press, so there can't be much/any less slop than there is now.

Yes, I know the stabilized wood is somewhere between wood and acrylic but he's had very consistently positive results with it prior to this.

Jbo

 

[edstreet]

Dan, these are breaking after round, when he's nearly finished.

I've wondered if it wasn't an issue with the hole drilled too large(I think 'street alluded to this in his post). But I'm drilling with a 7mm acrylic bit on a drill press, so there can't be much/any less slop than there is now.

Yes, I know the stabilized wood is somewhere between wood and acrylic but he's had very consistently positive results with it prior to this.

Jbo

Yes use sandpaper. a coarse grit, i.e. 40-80, will be more gentle on the delicate blank when it's thin. Also flooding it with thin CA can help greatly to. Esp if the wood is trashy and flakes off easily.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Dan, these are breaking after round, when he's nearly finished. I've wondered if it wasn't an issue with the hole drilled too large(I think 'street alluded to this in his post). But I'm drilling with a 7mm acrylic bit on a drill press, so there can't be much/any less slop than there is now. Yes, I know the stabilized wood is somewhere between wood and acrylic but he's had very consistently positive results with it prior to this. Jbo

What kind of pen? 7mm you mentioned If it's a slim there no much left there for material

For glue, as important as type of glue is total coverage I'm sure you know this, but lots of time working the tube with epoxy from both ends When one blows up, is there glue and maybe fibers on the tube or is it smooth and clean?

I still think that you may at a limitation of your tool.

Sanding to size is a real option as Ed mentioned Low grit paper will work fast once round

 

[Tim'sTurnings]

Carbide tools tend to grab and cause blow outs more than any other tool in my experience. If using carbide you can't lay it flat on the tool rest and scrape the blank. It needs to be presented at an angle to slice the material, not a scraping motion.
Scraping with a carbide tool and not using it at the correct angle is most likely your problem from what I have read. And possibly he is trying to make too big of cuts. Light cuts with the lathe at higher speeds may help.
Any lathe tool that is presented incorrectly to the blank can and will cause blowouts. I don't know if this will help or not but I wanted to at least post a possible cause to your son's problems.
I only use tools such as a skew, small spindle gouge or a versa chisel on all my pen making. I do not use carbide, tried them and don't like them for the reasons listed above.
Tim.

 

[wyone]

I am just a newbie myself, but I found when I was having a lot of issues with blowouts it was related to one of these things:

1-drilling the hole improperly so the tube did not fit uniformly
2-glueing the tube in improperly. I was not using thick CA and had a lot of issues. I also looked carefully at the tube after the blowouts and I could see inconsistent glue coverage along the length
3-improper approach of my tool as I approached the wood. I was not careful enough to make sure it was secure onto the tool rest first
4-dull tools. I actually use carbide a lot now as I am still not doing a very good job of sharpening my HSS tools. I will buy a real skew one of these days, but I need to do more research and work on sharpening skills

Just my input and it actually sounds like I have less experience than your son, so he may be a better turner than me at this point.

 

[jbo_c]

Thanks for all the help so far. For the short term, he's going to turn to a point, then switch to coarse paper to get this project done, think that's a workable solution.

He did get to take a victory lap late today after making a beautiful blonde boxelder razor and stand for his grandpa's Christmas present.

We'll keep working on technique(and buy a skew) and report back.

Thanks, again, all.

Jbo

 

[1080Wayne]

Just be sure that he practices with the skew on some scrap wood before embarking on the blanks . A skew is one of the more difficult tools to use correctly , but once mastered , the results are hard to beat .

 

[edstreet]

Thanks, EdStreet. Always willing to learn. That's how it works.

....
6. Don't get why changing to a new blade would be a problem.
7. I feel certain at this stage of the game, the new carbide blade is far sharper than I could consistently get any blade. In my ignorance, I didn't realize you could sharpen carbide blades(?).
...
9. Yes, I'm an info hog when it comes to this kind of thing. But I haven't seen any videos on dissecting failures. I'll check the links you provided.

Thanks again for the response. What it lacks in finesse, it carries in thought and intent. I appreciate that.

Jbo

I approach most things from more of a zen standpoint and it greatly confuses many people.


Read Your Chips : Modern Machine Shop

The above article while geared towards metal work does hold full sway with woodworking as well, same with ebonite, plastics, composites, stone, any and all material really. It also holds true to your vehicle.

This is about reading your chips, hearing what your tools are telling you and learning from that.


As for #6 goes, changing to a new blade (yes it would be sharper as it is used) but my whole point in the matter was sharpness of the cutting edge makes all the difference in the world. I often equate chisels to blunt force trauma being done to the object. It's a basic physics problem when you look at the nuts and bolts of what is going on. Tensile strength needed to sheer a section of material from the blank without ripping off a larger area. The duller the cutting edge is the more force trauma needed to do that job. After a set amount of force the growth rate is exponential, meaning it grows at a very fast rate.

Carbide tips is technically a carry over form the metal working industry. Certain materials you are better off using carbide tooling and they do provide some degree of perks but more often than not because many do not fully understand what they are dealing and we are left with the notion that carbide is the fix all end all solution (same can be said with using non-carbide tools as well, i.e. high carbon, HSS, tool steel, powdered metal etc.) I frequently hear many say "I use carbide tools because I cant sharpen or I don't want to sharpen". This notion is highly counter productive when it comes to dealing with problems like this thread, trouble shooting in general or even trying to obtain a good degree of quality.

Since Carbide is just like any other metal it can be sharpened. The pitfall is this, is that carbide COATED or is it solid carbide? More often than not you can have a good amount of carbide to work with to resharpen. Also how thick is that coating? The variance is quite large. New carbide bits, like chisels, have the basic angle in place as a good honing is required to obtain best results. Since that final angle is dependent on what method you are using to sharpen the manufactures does not fully sharpen the edge for you.


Know your tools.

Know your material.

Listen to your tools and material,

Win.

 

[low_48]

I hope no offense is taken here, but I guess I know better. I see way too many folks hurrying to sell product. I know a turner that couldn't wait to sell his first bowl. Personally, I would have been embarrassed to sell such work, but I am a perfectionist. I turned for years before I sold a single piece, much like my own apprenticeship. I was taught that you have to pay your dues first. Just because you have a lathe and tools, it doesn't make anyone proficient in penturning. How many pens has he turned? How many were soft burls? I also sure wouldn't blame the wood, since many of us started before there were any stabilized blanks offered on the market. Some materials take more skill to turn, way more tool skill needed than just shoving a carbide tipped scraper into the wood. I would never use a carbide tipped scraper on wood pens, there are way better tools to use to get a shearing cut. Send him to some classes on turning to learn how to use a skew and you will be amazed at how the failure rates go down. Also, find an AAW turning club where he can find a mentor on how to use a skew. Glad to see a kid learning about business and personal skills. As I always told my kids, some lessons are more expensive than others. Looks like an expensive one for you two if he insists on selling before the skill level is advanced.

 

[robutacion]

Well, I also would like to see more pics of the problem blanks, I say this because, these seem to be ones that your son seems to have most problems with.

As you would appreciate, there can be a number of reasons to the problem, I haven't heard anything so far, about the the possibility that the mandrel is bent or the lathe is misaligned and cause too much vibration when using a mandrel so, it would be appreciated if you could confirm these points as OK, please...!

Everyone will experience at some time, some blanks that don't seem to work for them, blowouts are the most common problem and as a result of that, and the fact that, some of the Resifills I make are considered a "challenge" to work with, in other words, difficult to handle.

I'm sure that someone else invented the idea long before me however, and after extensively tested/used, I started suggesting the "Flap disc system" approach, to resolve any and all the blowouts situations and difficult to handle blanks.

I'm quite surprised that Ed (ExoticBlanks), has actually made a recommendation (providing the link) of this system that, he never liked it that much from day one, in any case, it works and that is what matters, right...???:wink:

I have provided a few different options of the flap dis system, from the tool that rotates the disc to the size and type of the disks, themselves. I believe that, this system should be anyones "emergency" option when things go pear shaped with the common cutting tools, is not and expensive "thing" to have and in the case of a 4" grinder, they have many other uses...!

Why suggesting a fast rotating sanding tool instead of hand sanding, even if the grits are the same, (normally between 40 and 80 grits, I recommend the 40 grit). Well firstly, you can never maintain the blank perfectly round using hand sanding and secondly, using low grits (cut better, heat less) such as 40 or 60 grits, the depth of the scratches in hand sanding will be far worse than using a flap disc, why that you may ask...??

Well, you have the rotation speed of the lathe and the opposed rotation of the grinder/sanding tool, the centrifugal forces exerted to the wood are 90% less and the friction between the 2 rotating items, allow for the low grit papers to created a lot less depth of cut, the gentleness of the rotation sanding disc touch on the wood or acrylic blanks, results in faster but less aggressive results with the advantage of maintaining the blank/barrel, perfectly round...!

Sure, it can be a little more punishing on the bushings if you are not careful, a simple full turn with some masking tape will eliminate that first contact and, for those using the system often in all sorts of blanks and kits types, I suggest to get 2 sets of bushings, ones I call the sacrificial bushing, the ones first used with the flap disc system and them the better set, to complete the normal hand sanding stages.

The cost of one extra set of bushing for the kits used, is minimal compared with the consecutive look of blanks, tubes, glue, time, etc. etc....!

I like to make sure, turners, new or not, are aware and have this option in the tool shop, that is obviously a personal choice that, shouldn't have nothing to do with old/normal/common ethics...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[edstreet]

I'm quite surprised that Ed (ExoticBlanks), has actually made a recommendation (providing the link) of this system that, he never liked it that much from day one, in any case, it works and that is what matters, right...???:wink:George

wrong ed

 

[robutacion]

I'm quite surprised that Ed (ExoticBlanks), has actually made a recommendation (providing the link) of this system that, he never liked it that much from day one, in any case, it works and that is what matters, right...???:wink:George

wrong ed

Yep, you got that right...!:wink::biggrin:

George

 

[jbo_c]

Thanks for the good advice, Ed. We appreciate it.

Jbo

 

[wyone]

For the record.. I have used the method George described on a pen that had leather and metal on it and it worked like a charm. The only thing to remember is that if you go too long, it will get hot and could create issues that way. But for difficult wood, or say metal inserts, it works well.

 

[kovalcik]

I agree with the sentiments that you need to change your methods. It would seem a lighter touch is required regardless of the chosen tool. Carbide tools are nice, but they are not the best tool for every situation. I would go with a sharp skew as Dan suggested. It is not that hard to get the feel for a basic planing cut which I find best for fragile wood blanks. It is also very easy to sharpen with a diamond card (the harbor freight red one works well enough.) If you feel the skew is not an option, then go with the 80 grit gouge (sandpaper) for your final shaping.

The important thing is, some blanks are just more fragile than others and you have to be flexible and adjust your approach to make it work. As turners we sometimes get too comfortable with certain tools and techniques and try to force them to work for all situations. This can be attested to by the number of broken bowls you will find under my lathe.

 

[nativewooder]

BEB is a SOFT wood and requires a very sharp tool. Much sharper than carbide. And if the BEB was a little punky and the stabilization and dying was a hurry-up job to get PSI's order filled, then you can guess where your 80% failure rate is coming from. Best to send the blanks back to PSI and get a refund. Or you could calll PSI's Customer Service and speak to one of the ladies there as they are quite good at solving problems! Otherwise, Google is your friend and there are a lot of commercial stabilizing people out there. Good Luck!

 

[BayouPenturner]

I use carbide and have had some failures and it was from misalignment of the tool angle. i guess I had the tool sitting flat like a scraping angle position and one catch and the blank breaks. I use carbide but address the blank at an angle with the blade at about a 30 degree angle, not straight on. I would find someone near by and have your son have that experienced person critique his tool positions and conditions. I was always told when trying something get a mentor or lessons to avoid injury and frustration. Good luck.

 

[Wingdoctor]

While I do not claim to be as expert as many are on IAP, I do have some experience. I had a few blowouts early on and found a way that worked for me to eliminate them. I use epoxy exclusively now and I think I may apply it a little differently than some. I check to see that the tube will slide through the drilled blank smoothly and then scuff the tube to remove any oxidation and provide a little tooth for the epoxy. After mixing the epoxy correctly I use a 1/8" dowel rod to put glue all over the inside of the blank. I insert the dowel from both ends with a glob of epoxy on it and spread it around the drilled hole. I then apply epoxy to half the length of the tube and then insert the tube into the blank with a twisting motion. It is also important to plug the inserted end of the tube with something like dental wax, Arizona Silhouette, to keep the epoxy out. Using this method pushes a ring of epoxy around the top of the tube where it enters the blank and it insures total contact of epoxy between the tube and blank. I typically turn the blanks after an hour and in several hundred pens have not had a problem regardless of blank material. I have turned some cross cut red cedar which is soft and cross grain as well as a few buckeye burl without any problems. Maybe trying this would help. Good Luck!

 

[jbo_c]

Thanks for all the advice offered. Getting him a HSS skew soon. Will likely use the flap disk method or similar to finish these and get him some practice pieces to work on his techniques too.

Jbo

 

[snyiper]

I had issues one time and this may be way off base I just offer it as information. If the hole for the brass tube is too tight it has the tendency to wipe off the glue as it slides in. not sure if this is a issue or not but I may mic my tubes as well as hole and bit!! My issue was the bit was a shade small.....Just a thought.

 

[bloodhound]

This may have stung a little to hear/read. However, it is actually very informational. And also very correct. It sounded at first like Ed was being a bad guy. But this is truthful and helpful and tactful. Well done Ed.


P.s. What was the end result of the project?

 

[Joe Burns]

Lots of good suggestions. I also use a carbide tool to turn. When I made sure I was making light easy cuts and let the tool work at a fast lathe speed all my blow out problems went away. A time or two with a particular blank spreading thin CA on it helps.