Heat buildup on gouge

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Stugots

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I was turning an acrylic blank tonight and I noticed a lot of head build up on my gouge. Is that normal when turning acrylics? And will it effect the molecular structure of the metal of the gouge if I don't stop to let it cool down? I never noticed it when working with wood.
 
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wolftat

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Its not getting hot enough to do any damage to the tool, but you may want to keep the heat down as it will damage the blank.
 

Padre

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I am surprised you are building up so much heat turning an acrylic. Is your gouge sharp? And by gouge, do you mean spindle roughing gouge?
 

maxwell_smart007

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What type of acrylic? Was it tru-stone, perhaps?

Acrylics are less forgiving to dull tools than wood is - and they also tend to dull tools faster. Try rounding the corners of the blank with some sort of tool before you put it on the lathe, and sharpen your tool both before and during.
 

Stugots

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Spindle roughing gouge and I sharpened it the other day but have since turned several "home made" acrylics (Poly Resin) and some wood pens since then. This particular blank was one I bought from Woodcraft and is harder that the ones I make on my own. I will put the gouge on the grinder to sharpen it up some more before I take on another store bought acrylic.
 

Padre

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Anthony,
To be quite honest with you, whether I'm turning wood or acrylic, I sharpen my tool at least once per blank. Start with a sharp tool, 1/2 way through (at a minimum) resharpen.
 

Stugots

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Thanks for the advice. I did not know that it was acceptable to sharpen a tool so frequently but it makes perfect sense to me now. Thanks again.
 

witz1976

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Depending on the material I typically sharpen one per blank, unless I find it is dulling quick (esp. with trustone) then I hit it again. I mostly use my skew for about 95% of the work on plastics so my grinder stays pretty much set up for this.
 

nativewooder

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The makers of HSS tools love turners who sharpen their tools frequently. Everyone is different and after learning what a truly sharp tool is, you can adjust your sharpening schedule. Be sure to learn how to hone your tools between sharpenings.
 

ldb2000

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Unless you are abusing your tools , you shouldn't have to sharpen them that often . A simple honing will keep most HSS tools sharp and won't grind away your tools prematurely . A full sharpening should only done if you let them get too dull or chip the edge or if you want to change the profile .
I use , and LOVE , my PSI carbide tipped tools , They don't even require honing as often as HSS and they only get a full sharpening every few months . Because the tips are only brazed on you have to be careful to keep the toolrest tight to the work or you can break the tips off , but the Carbide stays scary sharp much , much longer then any HSS tool .
 

ed4copies

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And if your eyes glaze over on honing and sharpening, put a sharpening stone (1000ish) next to your lathe, stroke it a couple times and "renew your edge".

A hot tool is not cutting, it is creating friction. Either it is dull or you are not presenting the sharp part to the material at a cutting angle---in any event, you ARE creating friction and no, you shouldn't get hot.
 

randyrls

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Actually Ed, after a long turning session, I noticed my lathe tool was uncomfortably warm to the touch. Tools sharp!

I've noticed that on some of the harder Trustones.
 

ed4copies

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I also have seen it with trustone.

But acrylic should cut---I have been incorrect before, I am certainly willing to be wrong again---

Oh, and I have gotten my tools hot---I don't pretend to be good at sharpening. When the tool is sharp though, wow!!!
 

MorganGrafixx

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Anthony,
To be quite honest with you, whether I'm turning wood or acrylic, I sharpen my tool at least once per blank. Start with a sharp tool, 1/2 way through (at a minimum) resharpen.

THIS!

Depending on the material I typically sharpen one per blank, unless I find it is dulling quick (esp. with trustone) then I hit it again. I mostly use my skew for about 95% of the work on plastics so my grinder stays pretty much set up for this.

AND THIS!
 

Stugots

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The makers of HSS tools love turners who sharpen their tools frequently. Everyone is different and after learning what a truly sharp tool is, you can adjust your sharpening schedule. Be sure to learn how to hone your tools between sharpenings.

Since I am relativity new to wood turning how do I hone a gouge?
 

TerryDowning

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By sharpen perhaps does one mean hone?

I hone between blanks and some times during if the cutting feels wrong. Sharpening (Grinder, strip sander or whatever method) is less frequent basically if chipped or I need a profile change. I don't know the grit numbers on the stones I have as they are very old and well cared for 1 was my dad's, the other was his dad's. I just know them as the coarse, less coarse, finer and fine. Rarely have I had to go the coarse stone. usually finer and fine do the trick and I keep them handy.
 

Padre

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When I say sharpen, I mean taking it to my grinder. I have the Wolverine Sharpening system by Oneway on a slow-speed (1725 rpm) grinder. It is always set for the tool I am currently using.

I make sure that before I put the tool away I give it a good sharpening. That way when I start a new blank, bowl, spindle, plate, cup.....whatever, I am assured the tool is "scary sharp:eek:" and ready to go.

Then, while turning, I will take that tool over to the grinder at least once per blank and give it a quick re-sharpen on the grinder. I am not taking a lot of material off and it keeps my tool "scary sharp:eek:" all the time.

Honing on the other hand is using a diamond hone (or some other honing tool) and giving the edge of your tool a 'quick sharpen.' You are basically re-edging the tool, making the edge sharp and ready to cut.

I think you will find some folks who hone, some who sharpen. Both have their up-sides, and both have their down-sides. For instance, honing does not remove as much metal as does sharpening by grinding. However, grinding gives you a better edge that lasts longer than honing.

You'll get a preferred method once you do it enough.:tongue:
 

airborne_r6

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... However, grinding gives you a better edge that lasts longer than honing...

My personal experience tends to make me disagree with this statement. A honed edge is by far a better edge, its cuts cleaner and with less effort. I dont think it lasts as long as a solely ground edge but its pretty close and takes the same or less time to renew. And yes I keep my Wolverine set to the tool I am using but honing is still faster in my opinion.

As to the OP if you are getting heat your tool isnt sharp enough. I do all my pen turning with my 3/4" spindle roughing gouge and touch up the edge between blanks. It cuts cleanly on everything that I have tried, albeit I have not tried Trustone or some of the harder blanks.

Again this is just my personal experience and I am not intending to start a he said, she said mine is bigger, better, badder war just offering the opposing opinion.
 

KenV

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I love the sharpening topic -- opinions very so much on how to best do and what works -- as well as lots of myths and not so true common wisdom.

Given that all are of the opinion that you need sharp tools --- and scary sharp such that it will shave hairs on the arm is a good place to start -- note there term used by Robert Rosand and attributed it John Jordan -- "the tool could be sharper". Key is to sharpen when "the tools could be sharper" -- and not wait until it is dull

Vendors make sales on the next part -- how.

There is some pretty good research and published info (AAW) that sharp is sharp regardless of the steel. Beyond that tis a matter of durability/toughness as to how long it takes to erode the edge to "could be sharper". you can polish them all to the same edge. How long the edge lasts under what conditions -- and for what end outcome is the key. I think differently about rough shaping and forming shapes vs fine finishing cuts for the last surface.

The gamut ranges from dry grinders to wet grinders to diamond hones to fine rocks --

And they all work --- some take more time than others and some take more skill than others.

I hone skews with a fine diamond flat hone (I use the one sold by Alan Lacer) and any tool used like a skew is also honed as I go -- it tends to steepen the angle of the edge and create a microbevel, and I have to grind a bit heavier to reestablish the base edge (message - hone vs grind is prettymuch a zero sum situation given you are not a heavy hand at the grinder -- but rather develop a fine touch and need only take off a few thousands).

John Lucas is a really good turner who shows a light touch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9G16ylEZHQ

Notes --- temper point for high speed steel is about 1100 degrees F -- you cannot lose temper on a high speed steel tool with wood turning -- but you can erode an edge

Temper point where high carbon steel starts to change from hard brittle is about 350 degrees F and it gets softer and less tough fast for about 100-150 degree above that and you can get that hot with some hard dry woods. Mesquite is a good one for turning hot chip into the hand.

Acrylics -- very much heat equals dull tools --
 
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Padre

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... However, grinding gives you a better edge that lasts longer than honing...

My personal experience tends to make me disagree with this statement. A honed edge is by far a better edge, its cuts cleaner and with less effort. I dont think it lasts as long as a solely ground edge but its pretty close and takes the same or less time to renew. And yes I keep my Wolverine set to the tool I am using but honing is still faster in my opinion.

As to the OP if you are getting heat your tool isnt sharp enough. I do all my pen turning with my 3/4" spindle roughing gouge and touch up the edge between blanks. It cuts cleanly on everything that I have tried, albeit I have not tried Trustone or some of the harder blanks.

Again this is just my personal experience and I am not intending to start a he said, she said mine is bigger, better, badder war just offering the opposing opinion.

Wayne, don't worry about me getting into that stuff either. I value everyone's opinion and there have been many times I have tweaked something because of a discussion like this.

I think the ability for us to voice our opinions, findings and what we find works for us makes this a great place to learn and further our craft/art.:)
 

ldb2000

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Grinding and Honing are both forms of sharpening . Grinding takes away far more material and leaves a rougher edge then Honing . Grinding will leave a sharp , rough edge that is far sharper then a used or unsharpened edge but is still far short of a "Scary sharp" edge . Honing takes a freshly ground sharp edge and removes the imperfections that grinding leaves behind and creates a truly "Scary sharp" edge .
The easiest way to SEE the difference is to Grind a fresh edge on a regular 1" wood chisel and look at it under some magnification , what you will see is an edge with a serration along the edge . Now while this edge is very sharp the very small irregularities will not do any cutting . If you take this edge and Hone it on a water/oil/diamond honing stone the edge will start to take on a polished appearance and when it is honed to completion and looked at under magnification you will see that the irregularities in the edge are almost completely removed and you have an almost straight , smooth edge . The overall effect will be to perfect the edge that you ground on the grinder . As for the difference of sharpness between the two , think of shaving your face with a freshly ground Axe or a honed razor , both will do the job but the razor will do a better job with allot less effort (and loss of blood) .
Which is better ?
Well that all depends who you ask and what they are trying accomplish . Both will be far superior to a dull tool , both will get the job done with less heat build up but the honed edge will give a smoother , cleaner cut that requires less sanding . If you are turning things like aluminum and brass the difference will be very noticeable , less so on most acrylics and hardly worth mentioning on wood . Tool life will be greatly extended with regular honing and occasional grinding .
What is a good sharpening system ?
A great system consists of a slow speed (1750) grinder and a Tormak sharpening system (or clones) . Honing stones (water/oil/diamond) can be used in place of the Tormak (or clone) but are far harder to do freehand and get consistent results .
A grinder alone will make your tools sharp enough to use on a lathe in most cases , and is REQUIRED if you want to make pens on a lathe without bending mandrels and over heating and blowing up acrylic blanks .
Unless you are hitting your bushings or you drop your tool on the cutting edge or you want to change the profile there really is no reason to grind the edge , a quick touch up honing will restore your tool to "Scary sharp" in a short time and remove far less material so your tools will last allot longer .

Edit:
I should add that I very seldom use brass tubes glued in to my blanks when I make pens and working with acrylics heat is a very common enemy so I tend to be overly concerned on the sharpness of my tools . I also try to keep the aggressiveness of my tools as low as possible so I find that a "Scary sharp" tool is important to me , I need my tool to take very clean cuts and I find that a honed tool is less aggressive and cuts cleaner .
 
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ed4copies

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To try to make an "objective" conversation from the "honing" vs. "sharpening", let's try this:

We sand our pens--at a point we call it "polishing" rather than "sanding". Usually, we can agree MM or tripoli is the start of "polishing".

Can we do the same with "honing"? We agree "sharpening" happens on a wheel turning at 1725ish that has a stone under 400 grit.

Can we then agree that "honing" starts when the speed slows? Or some other "universal" description?

I don't really know the difference, so this could help many folks, perhaps.
 

ldb2000

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I don't think that speed is a good dividing line and the whole "grinding vs honing" thing is really a non issue to most turners . Both grinding and honing go hand in hand when it comes to tool sharpness . It's more a matter of preference , some like to grind , some prefer to hone . If your turning wood kit pens then grinding is all you will ever need , if your turning acrylic kit pens then honing will allow you to skip a few grits while sanding (if your technique is good enough) . I think that it does make a difference when you loose the brass tubes and try to keep a .030" thickness acrylic tube from blowing up . The only real difference is how sharp you feel your tools need to be and that is a very personal preference .
As for WHAT the difference is , "Honing" is taking sharpening to a higher level . In flat work a "Ground" handplane blade or chisel is unacceptable , in turning a "Ground" gouge is sharp enough for most things . The main difference is how much work will have to be preformed after the surface is ready for sanding . Since I have far more experience in flat work , I take my cues from there and I find that honed edge is better for MY kind of turning , and I can "Hone" an edge faster and sharper then grind one .
The main point is that you use "Sharp" tools .
 

Stugots

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Thanks for all your imput, it is very much appreciated. I did sharpen my gouge on my grinder and cut a piece of purpleheart like it was butter. I do not have anything to "hone" my gouge but I plan on getting something so I can at least give it a try. I now think my issue had a little to do with a slightly dull gouge and maybe some user error since I realized I pushed a little harder when the gouge was dull.

Thanks again all....................
 

KenV

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Anthony -- sounds like you are getting it figured out -- sharp is better and the style you decide to use to get there is your choice ---

Tools to use are the same way ---

and that is what keeps vendors in business.


I got a 5/8 spindle roughing gouge from Doug Thompson a few days ago and ............
 

TerryDowning

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Sharpening is a very personal choice based on training, available tools, and skill. I was taught old school with old school methods and it's what I am comfortable with. I was not allowed to put a chisel or any other edged tool to work until Dad was happy with my sharpening skills. Similarly, when Dad was satisfied that I could safely and correctly sharpen a pocket knife, I was allowed to carry one. I was taught to care for the tools before learning a technique. My children have been taught the same skills. My Dad's dad was a Master Craftsman who taught my dad who taught me.

Old School in this instance means file or grinder for setting the geometry of the edge and setting the initial edge followed by honing the edge with 4 progressive grits of oil stones. I don't know the actual grit numbers just coarse to very fine. These are the sharpening tools I have and what I know and they work for me. Personally, I have no need to go out and spend a truck load of money on sharpening systems when my 60+ year old well cared for stones do the job just fine. These are the same stones and procedures I use on all my edged tools, mostly just the way I was taught.

The bottom line is sharp is SAFE, for you, your tools and your final product.

That being said there is such thing as sharp enough. I don't generally hone axes or hatchets as a file is all that is needed and the honed edge is destroyed as soon as you power into a log. On the flip side, my plane irons don't touch a piece of wood with out hitting the finest stone I have. Which stones I use on my lathe chisels is a function of where I'm at in the process and the material I'm working with. If I'm roughing out the piece or working with something like dymond wood I don't go past the second stone in the collection because that stuff is just plain hard on edges and going any finer is just a waste of time. Before final passes I will run the chisel over the finest stone and keen the edge to cut down on sanding.

For acrylics and plastics there is no such thing as too sharp. The density of the plastics will build up heat much faster than wood and some of the plastics can be tough on edges. I keep the stones handy when working with plastics and laminates as they are used often with those materials.
 
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