Having a problem, I'm confused, HELP...

[Len Shreck]

Hello all I am having a problem and now I am confused. I use 5 min. epoxy to glue my tubes into pen blanks. I glued up 8 pen blanks on the 22th I went to mill them the next night and the mill pushed the tubes right out of the blanks, after the first 2 that this happened to I tried a third and the tube stuck fast to the pen mill and I had to use a pair of pliers to pull it off, this might have been some glue that got on the mill from another one. I thought I might have not put enough hardener in it or maybe too much so I did it again and same results.Now I am very confused what am I doing wrong? I scuff up the tubes on the lathe before I glue, them I use the same 7mm drill bit that I have been using, I am using the same bottles of epoxy I have been using so what am I doing wrong? I ordered extra tubes I used them on the second gluing however I did use the same blanks but I used a Q-tip with some nail polish remover on it to try and get some of the epoxy out of the blanks before the 2nd try. Any help would be very appreciated. I was hoping to have pens made for my family Christmas dinner I am having on Sunday afternoon but now I will not be able to have them done in time now but I still need to know so I am not messing up any more blanks and/or tubes. I keep going over it in my mind trying to figure out if I did something wrong and I know I did it the same way I have been doing it I even had my wife there showing her how it is done, yes I was showing off some, and I ask her to tell me step by step what I did and she went thru it the same way I have been doing it. like it says in the title HELP...
Thanks
Len

 

[CSue]

Well, Len, I can't help you with this. I've never use epoxy. I use CA to glue in my tubes. Yeah, it doesn't give you much time. But I know I won't have to be concerned with problems like you've got now.

Wish I could help. Hope you get some advise soon.

 

[leehljp]

With your inclination for detail, I am hesitant to guess.

However, On the surface, it sounds like
1. improper mix of epoxy, but you have been using this before; - or is it possible that you used the same tube twice instead of each once.
2. epoxy gone bad? that is a little unusually
3. too cold to set? I have seen 1 hour and 12 hour/24 hour epoxy delay some but not 5 min type.

As a test, Try mixing a couple of batches (1/2 teaspoon equiv) on a piece of cardboard and see if they set up.

 

[jttheclockman]

I use epoxy all the time and never had a problem. I agree before doing anything else mix a ratio of even proportions on a piece of metal or glass. Do not use cardboard or wood. You want to duplicate the metal of the tube. See if it hardens. If so then you may have grab the same bottle twice and did not realize it. Make sure you have part A and Part B bottles. Keep us up to date on this.

I just reread your post and you said the mill pushed the tubes right out. Was there glue residue on the tubes or was it hardened???

 

[1080Wayne]

Agree with previous posts . Nail polish remover probably doesn`t enhance epoxy strength .

 

[Len Shreck]

The glue was hard on the end of the blank but was sticky on the tube when it pushed out. That's another thing that has me confused it was hard on the end of the blank you know how you get some on the end of the blank from putting the tube in well that was hard as it should have been but on tube that was pushed out it was sticky after 24 hr plus. I never thought about the cold having not let it set up I figured since it was epoxy that the cold wouldn't make any diff. My shop is in my basement so it is colder then in the house but no where near freezing. As far as the nail polish remover I just tried to use some of that to get the epoxy residue out of the blank before I tried again but after I used it I left the blanks set for prob about 10-15 min before I tried to glue again. Prop mixture- it got nice and hard on the end of the blank so I figure it was mixed with right amounts and used A & B. Epoxy gone bad- I just bought the epoxy at Lowes less then a month ago. Could of it gone bad that quick? Would it being left in the basement all the time have caused problems with it? I thank you all for the help in trying to help me get this figured out. Blanks and pen kits are too expensive to waste 8 at a time.

 

[ldb2000]

Len , did it push the tubes out while just inserting the trimmer shaft or was the trimmer spinning in the blank when the tubes broke loose ?
If they just pushed out when you pushed the trimmer into the blank , I would say either the epoxy was bad or mixed wrong . If they came out as you were trimming the blank , I would say heat caused the glue to soften and break loose .

 

[Len Shreck]

When I started to trim the end of the blank, so while it was spinning. This is the first time I have ever had this happen and Im confused by it. Thanks for the help.

 

[leehljp]

When I wrote "delay" above, I should have explained that I have seen 1 hour take 2, and 12 hour much more but no more than 24 in an unheated shop at temps in the 35° - 40° degree range. I don't use epoxy unless I have a little heat or it is around 50° and above.

One other situation that fits the description above is that the glue was not mixed well. If two parts are poured together and inadequately mixed, it will harden in places and not in others.

 

[Len Shreck]

Thanks Hank I thought I mixed it good enough but at this point I am not really sure about anything anymore having to do with these 8 pens. My shop is warm enough that I am comfortable with a flannel shirt on over a tee shirt I am not sure of an exact temp but its not that cold. I was thinking after reading the reply's that maybe the epoxy its self was too cold to work right ever heard of that?

 

[skiprat]

I rarely use epoxy unless I need the gap filling properties...
but when I do and as they are colour coded, I have never ever never ever ever ever ever:tongue: mixed a resin and hardener that didn't match:clown:

 

[dontheturner]

The glue was hard on the end of the blank but was sticky on the tube when it pushed out. That's another thing that has me confused it was hard on the end of the blank you know how you get some on the end of the blank from putting the tube in well that was hard as it should have been but on tube that was pushed out it was sticky after 24 hr plus. I never thought about the cold having not let it set up I figured since it was epoxy that the cold wouldn't make any diff. My shop is in my basement so it is colder then in the house but no where near freezing. As far as the nail polish remover I just tried to use some of that to get the epoxy residue out of the blank before I tried again but after I used it I left the blanks set for prob about 10-15 min before I tried to glue again. Prop mixture- it got nice and hard on the end of the blank so I figure it was mixed with right amounts and used A & B. Epoxy gone bad- I just bought the epoxy at Lowes less then a month ago. Could of it gone bad that quick? Would it being left in the basement all the time have caused problems with it? I thank you all for the help in trying to help me get this figured out. Blanks and pen kits are too expensive to waste 8 at a time.

Hi, I am a newbie on here, but have been making pens, in the UK, for about 10 years, and here in Thailand for just over 2 years. I always use, 5 minute epoxy, but before gluing, them, I spin the tubes, on two allen keys, against a sander disc, mounted on an old motor. Then I get a cotton bud, and dip it in my Vaseline jar, and run it up and down the inside of the tube. I would think , your problem, cannot possibly be old adhesive, but they do have a use by date on them - your problem, I would think has to be temperature. The only other thing I would mention, is some woods, can be oily. Don theturner.

 

[dontheturner]

PS Len - One thought occurs to me - When you mix epoxy, if you DO NOT MIX IT sufficiently, it will not appear totally off-white, but will have clear patches- and this can give that situation. dontheturner.

 

[jaywood1207]

I'm with Butch on this one since you mentioned that it was when you were trimming the end of the blank and not when you entered the trimmer shaft into the tube. If sounds like you now have epoxy on your shaft so make sure you get all of that off or it will cause friction on the next one which causes the heat and softens the epoxy and will release the tube again. Dip it in acetone for a mintue or so and it will wipe off with no problem.

 

[jttheclockman]

Well after reading your after thoughts I am going with the theory of it was not mixed well enough. I don't believe you created that much heat to cause it to realese. You should have only done one tube the second time to see what the problem was. Like I said you need to make up another batch and let it set the amount of time needed and see if it gets hard. And also try another pen tube with the same batch. Or get some new glue and check the dates. Good luck.

 

[glwalker]

I always use 5 minute epoxy and have never had a problem. I do mix it in a circular motion, always bringing the edges into the blob of glue and I do this for maybe 20 seconds. I agree with other comments regarding possible causes.

 

[TellicoTurning]

Thanks Hank I thought I mixed it good enough but at this point I am not really sure about anything anymore having to do with these 8 pens. My shop is warm enough that I am comfortable with a flannel shirt on over a tee shirt I am not sure of an exact temp but its not that cold. I was thinking after reading the reply's that maybe the epoxy its self was too cold to work right ever heard of that?

Len,
My shop is unheated and is a stand alone building... so doesn't get any heat from any other source... generally I don't use epoxy on pens, but do on other things.... so far I've had no problems with, but once when I was doing some peppermills, the epoxy components were almost too cold to flow out of the bottle... I had to warm it for a few seconds in the MW before I could squeeze out enough to mix... it seems to have worked okay though.

 

[JimMc7]

Edit to add, "never mind" -- actually reading your original post this time, it happened before you spun the mill bit -- sorry!


I've had the epoxy release a couple of times when milling -- particularly with slimlines. As mentioned earlier, I think the problem is a bit of gunk in the tube causing friction for the mill and heat builds when I spin the mill bit causing the epoxy to heat & release. Usually the tube "sticks" to the mill bit and pulls out of the blank. I mill on a drill press and could also be improper alignment of the tube/mill, creating extra friction/heat during milling. I've never had it happen when using a pen mill sleeve -- only when using a purpose-built milling bit (slimline or Sierra in my case).

 

[Smitty37]

Been There

I've had the same problem, or at least a similar one. Mine usually occur when I don't let the epoxy harden long enough...or when I take too long getting 5 minute epoxy applied and it is a tad too stiff when I put it on the tube. They break loose every time I do that. I've taken to only doing a half a dozen tubes max with one mixing.

 

[DavePowers]

What was the temp of the room you stored your blanks in. I have had problems when the room or material I was useing was cold. The ends were hardened but the insides still had not cured.

Dave

 

[Len Shreck]

I keep the blanks and epoxy in the same place my basement so I would say that the temp wasnt any colder then 50 degrees maybe. I am planning on trying again tomorrow but only doing one pen blank at a time and see if it works that way. When I mix my epoxy it turns a milky white color I use sticks that look like tongue depressors to mix I got a pack of 100 at Micheal's Craft Store just for this purpose and I got some Play-dough that I take and use the end of the tube that I will be putting into the blank first and use it like a cookie cutter and plug the end so the epoxy dont get in side the tube. I will keep you updated on if it works tomorrow. If not it will be a trip to Lowes for some new epoxy. Maybe it was that there was some epoxy on the shaft of the mill that caused heat build up I will make sure there isnt any on it tomorrow.Thanks all for the help... Len

 

[mredburn]

You might try taking half of the blanks you glue up into the house where you know they have adequate warmth and see if it makes a difference against those left in the basement. This would give you a good indication if you have a problem with the tempeture keeping the epoxy from curing.

 

[SonOfMartin]

Len,

I don't glue anywhere that isn't about 70 or above. I keep my epoxy and CA glue in the house and do my gluing there.

I built literally dozens of large r/c aircraft using epoxy and learned the hard way that it does not like being stored or used in environments where the temp goes under 70.

I suggest you bring all your glues upstairs from your basement and let them come to room temperature (maybe up to 24 hours). Then glue your tubes in and then let them dry in the same warm environment.

 

[Sberger]

If all was prepared correctly, and done right and we still have no answer, here is my $.02. Two other possibles. Maybe the epoxy got frozen in transit, and secondly are you blowing out the blanks with air? Just suspects!!!!
Steve

 

[Len Shreck]

Sorry it took so long to get back I forgot to let you all know. I brought my epoxy upstairs where it is warm and tried to glue tubes and no problem so in the future if anyone has problems this may come into your mind I guess it was from the cold, only thing I can think of. I forgot because I got orders for pens and my birthday was on Tuesday so I am sorry. Thank you all for your help and thoughts on what may have been going on.
Len