Going "Kitless" or "Componentless" or "Custom"

[Texatdurango]

After reading yet another thread where a member wanted to venture beyond making a kit from a bag of parts BUT... didn't have a metal lathe, I thought I'd comment.

Fact: You can make a pen from a bag of parts (kit) using almost any lathe.

Fact: You can also make a custom, kitless or component-less pen using the same lathe you use for your kit pens.

For some reason, many members think you have to have a metal lathe before making their own pens from scratch and that's simply not true. I can do everything to make a nice pen on my Jet mini lathe that I can do on my metal lathe.

I read most of the threads over the past year or so where members are venturing into custom pens and it appears to me that the trend is to make it sound like it's so complicated that those crossing the threshold are super pen makers with keen pen making skills, while in reality, making a pen from scratch in many areas is much easier than putting a kit pen together!

It's just drilling, threading and shaping... THAT'S IT, no supernatural skills involved, and to prove it...... I've been making them for years now and I don't even have a degree in pen making!:wink:

It seems that way too many posts where one wants to start making their own pens starts out with..... "I probably don't have the skills yet but".... or "I don't have a metal lathe yet but"....

To those folks I say, just do it! Your first pens won't be masterpieces (and neither are some of the ones being shown as "My first kitless" either! )

 

[Curly]

Myth Buster!!!!

Now we aren't pen gods anymore. Just mortals with tools. Where is the fun in that?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner because I can't reach my desktop!

 

[frank123]

The mechanical aspects of a simple kitless that is just functional and works well are really quite simple, requiring only the drilling and tapping of several holes in a piece of round material (maybe round material turned down from square material), and cutting several external threads with a die.

A metal lathe is handy but not necessary to do this, but a wood lathe is almost essential to make the actual finished pen by turning and styling it into something beyond just a piece of round bar. Kitless gives a great deal of leeway in the final pen design to make it something fully unique which a kit does not allow since its components dictate the design.

 

[lorbay]

I have 3 lathes in my shop 2 wood and a metal and most of if not all is done on my Vicmarc VL 300, not sure why. It's just my baby I guess.

Lin.

 

[mredburn]

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:No, no, no, George, Kitless takes a level 6 Grand Pen Wizard versed in Alchemy and the dark arts. There is much mystery and slight of hand along with some strong spirits involved. Dont spoil it......................:biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Dustygoose]

I finally got the taps/dies that I wanted to use. Problem is no time to practice. I want clean crisp threads. They do look better now.

 

[chriselle]

George!...quit waving your arms around! ....you're liable to disturb the smoke and damage the mirrors....:biggrin:

 

[Lenny]

<snip>and to prove it...... I've been making them for years now and I don't even have a degree in pen making!:wink:

And to think I've been wasting my time listening to your advice for years and here you aren't even qualified!!!! :wink::biggrin:

 

[Gilrock]

Well you know I gotta credit you George with helping me get started since I used several of your ideas about the die holder and how to make a section. I started my first one before I owned a metal lathe but now that I have a metal lathe I will say I'm making them much easier. But actually I could probably go back to the wood lathe and make them much better now than when I started. The big difference for me was on the wood lathe I was having a problem holding the parts in a collet chuck for finishing. With that method I would only be able to polish half the piece at a time and then I'd flip it around and have a heck of time getting it to spin true when remounted. And I broke a body and some other parts trying to do shaping without the proper support. So what the metal lathe allowed me to do was design my own custom mandrels. I actually mount the mandrels in my collet chuck on the wood lathe so now my process involves both lathes. Whats great is I sized all my mandrels to fit the 3/4" collet so I don't fumble around with trying to match up collet sizes anymore. So I use the metal lathe to turn the initial diameter, create the tenons, and drill the holes. Then I mount tap and die holders to do all the threading operations. Then the piece goes over to the wood lathe for final shaping, sanding, and polishing all accomplished on the mandrels. Now that I have these mandrels I could do most all the work on the wood lathe.

 

[Andrew_K99]

Well you know I gotta credit you George with helping me get started since I used several of your ideas about the die holder and how to make a section. I started my first one before I owned a metal lathe but now that I have a metal lathe I will say I'm making them much easier. But actually I could probably go back to the wood lathe and make them much better now than when I started. The big difference for me was on the wood lathe I was having a problem holding the parts in a collet chuck for finishing. With that method I would only be able to polish half the piece at a time and then I'd flip it around and have a heck of time getting it to spin true when remounted. And I broke a body and some other parts trying to do shaping without the proper support. So what the metal lathe allowed me to do was design my own custom mandrels. I actually mount the mandrels in my collet chuck on the wood lathe so now my process involves both lathes. Whats great is I sized all my mandrels to fit the 3/4" collet so I don't fumble around with trying to match up collet sizes anymore. So I use the metal lathe to turn the initial diameter, create the tenons, and drill the holes. Then I mount tap and die holders to do all the threading operations. Then the piece goes over to the wood lathe for final shaping, sanding, and polishing all accomplished on the mandrels. Now that I have these mandrels I could do most all the work on the wood lathe.

The custom mandrels has been my hang up with only having a wood lathe. Drilling and cutting threads is relatively easy on a wood lathe with a collet chuck. Holding the body or cap for shaping and finishing isn't easily done without a custom mandrel. I made one out of aluminum that worked but I am not happy with it. Until I get them made I'm at a stand still, they'd be made in no time if I had a metal lathe but ones not in the budget at the moment.

AK

 

[crabcreekind]

That is true, just some of the processes seem impossible, because it is hard to show on a writeup. And there isnt many youtube kitless videos. Also measurements are crucial and most people dont think of that stuff very often when making kit pens. But once you know how to do it. It is pretty easy

 

[Texatdurango]

That is true, just some of the processes seem impossible, because it is hard to show on a writeup. And there isnt many youtube kitless videos. Also measurements are crucial and most people dont think of that stuff very often when making kit pens. But once you know how to do it. It is pretty easy

Here's my take on this.......

True, mistakes will be made and some tasks seem daunting and NO ONE is going to sit down with a few taps, dies and drills and make a nice pen worthy of the SOYP. Perhaps that's where a lot of folks are getting confused, they think with the right tools and a few hours they will make their first pen. This is going to take a lot of trial and error, experimenting and patience and you don't need youtube videos or write ups to make a pen, just the desire to experiment.

When I made my first kitless pen back in 2008 there were no videos, no tutorials or write ups, no lists of tools needed, nothing! Bruce Robbins did a group buy for some 12mm multi-start tap and die sets and we designed our pens around the sizes required for those threads.

The same holds true today, decide on your main cap to body threads then design your pen around those dimensions. Body diameters and lengths will be dictated by the hole sizes required for section threads and section threads will be dictated by the ink converters and cartridges used. When you make a real snazzy cap where you did a good job on the clip then screw on the body and feel something weird, you realize that you just screwed up a nib so you learn to use junk nibs and spend more time thinking about the next cap size. Everything is dependent on something else and tinkering around a few weeks will start revealing those dark secrets and things that seemed impossible will suddenly become crystal clear.

I have always strongly recommend that anyone venturing into making their own pens buy some cheap acrylic and/or aceltal rods to practice on rather than using pen blanks. In the beginning you will not be making pens, you'll be working on body diameters, lengths and seeing what thread sizes work best and after some careful note taking, most if not all of your work will likely be tossed in the trash so why spend money on expensive pen blanks.

After some experimenting you'll know when it's time to make a REAL pen from a REAL blank and from then on, it's just trying different things to fine tune your pens. Around this time, you'll get the sense that you are a pen maker rather than a pen assembler and the whole hobby/business takes on a new light!

 

[alphageek]

Around this time, you'll get the sense that you are a pen maker rather than a pen assembler and the whole hobby/business takes on a new light!

Well George, I was in agreement with you pretty much the whole conversation until you threw that last line out there. To me calling anyone who hasn't made a thread by cutting their own threads a "pen assembler" is an insult to most of the pen makers on this forum. I could point out literally dozens upon dozens on here that use components and yet have amazing pens.

 

[Texatdurango]

Around this time, you'll get the sense that you are a pen maker rather than a pen assembler and the whole hobby/business takes on a new light!

Well George, I was in agreement with you pretty much the whole conversation until you threw that last line out there. To me calling anyone who hasn't made a thread by cutting their own threads a "pen assembler" is an insult to most of the pen makers on this forum. I could point out literally dozens upon dozens on here that use components and yet have amazing pens.

It wasn't meant to be an insult, I wasn't knocking kit pens or those who make them whatsoever, I still make them as well. It was just an expression and I guess you just have to experience it to know what I'm talking about. I've talked in person with several other pen makers and they all feel the same way, you look at your work a little differently, that's all, sorry you took it that way. If you think it is out of line, delete the sentence, I don't care.

 

[Joe S.]

I've thought about doing a kitless, but I don't have a collet chuck.

 

[Texatdurango]

I've thought about doing a kitless, but I don't have a collet chuck.

Joe, While I can't imaging making a pen without a collet chuck since I've used mine so long, I think since all you're doing is holding a blank while working on it, any good chuck that runs true would work.

I round a blank between centers then use a chuck to hold the blank while drilling and threading then for the final shaping I mount the blank on a mandrel which in turn is held with a chuck.

To me, the collet chuck just makes life easier and quicker but isn't a must have tool. I have seen some use what I believe is a pin chuck and it looks like it would work fine, probably just not as accurate as a collet chuck.

 

[glycerine]

True, no metal lathe needed, BUT, it IS alot different than making a "kit" pen. There's a bit of a learning curve, but once you "practice" and figure it all out, it's all downhill from there...

 

[glycerine]

I've thought about doing a kitless, but I don't have a collet chuck.

Do you have a scroll chuck? That's what I use and it works fine for me. There are a few steps that would be EASIER if I had a collet chuck, but it's not necessary.

 

[chriselle]

Collet chuck + a large assortment of collets = a solid investment

 

[frank123]

I've thought about doing a kitless, but I don't have a collet chuck.

If you were patient in setting things up accurately, you could drill and thread the body, cap, and and section on a drill press then turn the final shapes on a wood lathe between centers. It would help to turn the blank round first and the tenon for the body to cap threads already cut to size (if it isn't already round) since removing then reinstalling the blank in the press will lend itself to concentrically and angular error.

 

[Joe S.]

I've thought about doing a kitless, but I don't have a collet chuck.

Do you have a scroll chuck? That's what I use and it works fine for me. There are a few steps that would be EASIER if I had a collet chuck, but it's not necessary.

Just a cheap psi chuck (levar operated) a friend gave it to me when I was just starting turning.

I've thought about doing a kitless, but I don't have a collet chuck.

Joe, While I can't imaging making a pen without a collet chuck since I've used mine so long, I think since all you're doing is holding a blank while working on it, any good chuck that runs true would work.

I round a blank between centers then use a chuck to hold the blank while drilling and threading then for the final shaping I mount the blank on a mandrel which in turn is held with a chuck.

To me, the collet chuck just makes life easier and quicker but isn't a must have tool. I have seen some use what I believe is a pin chuck and it looks like it would work fine, probably just not as accurate as a collet chuck.

I'll try it sometime. Thank you for posting this thread, you inspired me to try kitless now, it always seemed to huge a project before. Thanks!

 

[Texatdurango]

.....I'll try it sometime. Thank you for posting this thread, you inspired me to try kitless now, it always seemed to huge a project before. Thanks!

Good deal, one more over to the dark side...... my quota for the month is met! :biggrin:

When you get started and get stumped, remember two important things:

1. Other than the occasional "dammit moment" If it's not fun for you stop doing it.

2. There are lots of folks ready to help and are just a PM away or better yet, post a question in a thread in the advanced pen making forum where others might benefit from the discussions.

 

[Gilrock]

Yeah and about it not being easy the first time. You can look in the Advanced Pen Making section and find a history of my frustrations. My first practice pieces I couldn't get things to even thread together. To be honest I never really figured out what I did wrong the first couple times I tried to thread Delrin for practice but now I get threads I like every time. You can even find a thread I think I titled "I hate my pen". That was my experience with my first kitless. And I was seeing several others posting their first kitless and they looked almost perfect....I was sitting home secretly mad at them and saying to myself..."yeah right...you mean the first kitless you were willing to show us". It wasn't till about my 4th one that I started to be really happy with my results.

 

[IPD_Mr]

And I was seeing several others posting their first kitless and they looked almost perfect.

Well duh. Don't you know if you don't post pictures it never happened? :biggrin::tongue::biggrin:

If I had posted my "experiments" then it really would have happened and you all would have been laughing at the pile of broken pieces.

 

[rogerwaskow]

Parts

Hi all

Am I glad this has come up. I have been wanting to go into kitless but in Aussy we don't have just parts. It's kits or nothing. I do make closed end etc.
Where does one get parts????? The million $ question in my case and I have never cut a thread or for that tapped one so am quit clueless.

Thanks for reading.

 

[joefyffe]

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:No, no, no, George, Kitless takes a level 6 Grand Pen Wizard versed in Alchemy and the dark arts. There is much mystery and slight of hand along with some strong spirits involved. Dont spoil it......................:biggrin::biggrin:

I am in agreement with mredburn about the need for involvement of strong spirits. I prefer a good clear southern bourbon or even a smooth rye is acceptable

 

[mredburn]

Hi all

Am I glad this has come up. I have been wanting to go into kitless but in Aussy we don't have just parts. It's kits or nothing. I do make closed end etc.
Where does one get parts????? The million $ question in my case and I have never cut a thread or for that tapped one so am quit clueless.

Thanks for reading.

Roger you will need to find a source for brass and aluminum to make parts along with using pr blanks. The metals are not necessary but add possibilities. For Fountain pens you will need to figure out whether your going to use the front section from a kit or whether your going to order feed assemblies and nibs from a source and make your pen using them.

complete front sections - Exotic blanks, The golden Nib.

Feed assemblies and nibs-

Classic Nib, Indy Pen Dance, Meister Nibs, The golden Nib.

 

[rogerwaskow]

Many thanks for the info which is greatly appreciated.

 

[nava1uni]

You can make a mandrel to do kit less pens. Look in the library where you will find articles on doing it.

 

[glycerine]

Hi all

Am I glad this has come up. I have been wanting to go into kitless but in Aussy we don't have just parts. It's kits or nothing. I do make closed end etc.
Where does one get parts????? The million $ question in my case and I have never cut a thread or for that tapped one so am quit clueless.

Thanks for reading.

You mean parts as in taps/dies? I ordered all of mine on the internet. I think most came from Victor Machinery (www.victornet.com). Not sure how shipping is for you...
Other than that, you could start off with a clipless rollerball. That way, as far as pen parts are concerned, all you would really NEED was a rollerball refill. A spring would be nice, but not necessary. I've been working on a kitless rollerball for the Montblanc refill and I'm only using an acrylic blank, an aluminim rod (for the finial, front section tip and a cap band) and a spring.