To glue, or not to glue.....

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ed4copies

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When we assemble the sierras (and diplomats), we know there is a gap above the "transmission". When disassembling this pen to put in a refill, the customer CAN push the transmission up and make it impossible to "screw it back together".

I had my first case of customer-error this week (well, first of THIS PARTICULAR customer error) and it got me thinking about options.

Is there a reason we don't want to put a little Red Loctite on the outside of the transmission, when we assemble??
 
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MesquiteMan

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Ed, I moved this to penturning since it is directly related to pen turning.

On to your question...I guess it depends on it you were taught the silly way to change the refill, ie, pull the whole pen apart to then unscrew the transmission and change the refill and put it back together. If you were taught that method and show that method to your customers, it obviously will not work.

If, however, you simply unscrew the lower portion to change the refill without taking the pen apart, then yes, it works flawlessly. Or at least it has in my experience and I only make Elegant Sierras and Jr. Statesmen.
 

DCBluesman

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I don't think this relates to which of the two methods you emply to change the refill. In either case, if the refill is not properly and completely seated into the transmission, the customer will press the pieces together to screw the pen back together. The problem occurs because the Parker-style refill was designed for click-pens (that's why they have that wierd shaped piece on the end of the refill) and adapted, after the fact, to twist pens.

My simple solution is to glue a 5/16" length of dowel into the upper end of the tube prior to assembly. Then the transmission cannot be pushed up.

A more elegant solution would be for the manufacturer to entend the coupler of the cap, but we all know how long design changes can take.
 

jttheclockman

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No the answer to correct the problem is for companies to stop with the old method of making these and go to the method used by some other EB kits where the trans or twisting action is in the cap. Problem solved. I have run into this problem a few times now and am still looking for an easy way out. I want to eliminate the sierra line from my stock but there are so many possibilities with it and it is ashame.

Curtis answered your question correctly.
 

Russianwolf

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If I were still making Sierras and their clone, I'd do what Lou suggested. It prevents the problem 100% regardless of disassembly method. While the locktite may work most of the time, it can still happen.

My solution was to switch to the Elegant Beauty(true, not Berea version)/Aero. This pen is higher quality in my opinion but is more exacting on tube length. Some of the PSI upper end ballpoints are similar in design also.
 

JerrySambrook

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Ed,
Why use red? Why not green, which can be removed easier if necessary.

Curtis,
Why is the pull off the tube silly? This is the way to show to keep the customer from pushing the transmission into it.

Lou,
Why do you glue in the dowel? it could and should be a slight press fit and is then removalble if need be as well.

My answer is exactly opposite of Curtis, and I do show people to take the tube off, then remove the transmission, change, put the tranny on, then re-apply the tube.
Tough to mess up that way.
 

ed4copies

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Ed,
Why use red? Why not green, which can be removed easier if necessary.

Curtis,
Why is the pull off the tube silly? This is the way to show to keep the customer from pushing the transmission into it.

Lou,
Why do you glue in the dowel? it could and should be a slight press fit and is then removalble if need be as well.

My answer is exactly opposite of Curtis, and I do show people to take the tube off, then remove the transmission, change, put the tranny on, then re-apply the tube.
Tough to mess up that way.


Spoken like a true engineer!! Pragmatic-yes!!

But we claim to be making "high end writing instruments". So why does our customer have to "be careful" with our resulting pens??

As a "marketer", I want to tell my customer he refills the pen like any other, unscrew it, drop in the refill and screw it back together. AND, I don't want to have to "hold my breath" every time he unscrews it to make certain he doesn't "goof".

Telling them to pull off the top, you will sell to many other engineers---happy to oblige!!! But, not too many "classy ladies" want to LEARN a new way to add a refill. Or, so it is with the ones I have met at shows--maybe I have not met the right crowd, yet.

FWIW--an opinion---not facts---you are encouraged to have one too!!!
 

DCBluesman

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Lou,
Why do you glue in the dowel? it could and should be a slight press fit and is then removalble if need be as well.

Jerry - I never knock a pen apart and fix it. If a pen gets damaged or stops working, I replace it and salvage parts for spares. A press fit part would work as well.
 

MesquiteMan

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Don't think you guys got what I was saying. I use some red locktite at the top of the assembly so when you press everything together and the locktite dries, it CAN NOT get pushed further into the pen. That is, unless the locktite fails which I have yet to see happen. If the locktite is there where I say to put it, you CAN NOT pull the pen apart. You MUST unscrew the lower end.
 

JerrySambrook

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Lou,
That is a good philosophy, and is probably the smartest of the approaches. The only drawback, and it would be a real rare case, is if the pen is made from a "special" piece of wood/material, i.e. Historical wood, or wood with sentiment. I brng this up, because right now I am doing a few pieces like that for the Curtiss museum and one of the Curtiss pilots. It is rather hard to replace 100 year old ash that was removed during a restoration with something else as the wood is unique.

Curtis,
To me at least, it was not evident in your first reply that you used any locktite at all, and if I was to assume such, sorry, but I did not. That was why your reply was puzzling to me.

Ed,
I agree, the easiest way to do something is usually the best, and unscrewing directly is definitely the easiest way, however, it is also the way that most get in trouble, if the original maker does not do something to ensure that the transmission is not made to stay put.

I do agree with both Ed and Lou that we should not worry about making pens that can come apart for some reason, but, on the other hand, there are situations where we would have to look at that possibility as well.
 

ldb2000

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I still say that this is inexcusable on the part of the manufacturers . They know that this is a design flaw in the Sierra style pens and could easily redesign the finial to avoid this problem but until their main distributors step up and say something it will continue . Lou's' solution of the dowel is the best solution to the problem until it is resolved and is the one that I choose myself , and I glue in the dowel to make sure that it don't fall out at a later time , like the little metal pips in the click Sierras do (that's another gripe about the Sierra line) .
The biggest problem with gluing the transmission in is that there will always be one customer that will use a gorilla grip and break the glue bond loose or worse yet actually break the transmission and end up with a broken pen that will then reflect badly on us . With a dowel glued in the finial the problem is solved and it will never have to be reversed .
I personally show my customers that they should pull the pen apart to replace the refill . Having them unscrew the whole upper part of the pen puts undue stress on the transmission . By pulling it apart and unscrewing the transmission separately they can grip the metal lower part and not the movable part of the transmission .
 

witz1976

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Don't think you guys got what I was saying. I use some red locktite at the top of the assembly so when you press everything together and the locktite dries, it CAN NOT get pushed further into the pen. That is, unless the locktite fails which I have yet to see happen. If the locktite is there where I say to put it, you CAN NOT pull the pen apart. You MUST unscrew the lower end.


I must confess that I was confused by what you stated earlier. Thank you for clarifying. This actually makes sense and I think I will try this method.
 

DurocShark

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I dislike the pull apart method because the bumps wear down with each pull. A drop of Loctite works great, and can be undone if needed. Easily repaired too if necessary.
 

redfishsc

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But we claim to be making "high end writing instruments". So why does our customer have to "be careful" with our resulting pens??

As a "marketer", I want to tell my customer he refills the pen like any other, unscrew it, drop in the refill and screw it back together. AND, I don't want to have to "hold my breath" every time he unscrews it to make certain he doesn't "goof".


Ed, you are my hero :biggrin:. It bothers me enough that I have to tell my customers "Please for the love of pete, don't lose that little spring on the end of the refill, or else we're all doomed".


Jerry - I never knock a pen apart and fix it. If a pen gets damaged or stops working, I replace it and salvage parts for spares. A press fit part would work as well.

99.9% agreed. The only time I knock apart anything is in the rare occasion that a customer breaks a clip. Even then it's hard as heck since I epoxy ALL non-moving parts firmly in place. My clips never come lose and spin :biggrin: but I have had a breakage or two from people who "flick" them like a nervous habit.
 
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I spread CA glue on the exterior of the transmission when I assemble the pen and direct my recipient to unscrew the nib to change the refill.

The Sierra design is bizarre to me, needlessly complicated and needs a redesign to operate like the Aero or Penn State Executive or Carbara, i.e. either have the nib unscrew, the finial/transmission unscrew, or both. I have recently been buying Elegant Beauties (same as Aero) from Lau Lau Woodworks, these are high quality pens and have a rational design.
 

Tim'sTurnings

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What is the reason for using locktite instead of glue to hold the transmission in. I simply use CA on the top part of the transmission and have not had any reason to take that apart, so why not use glue. My customers and I have had problems with the top part of the transmission getting pushed too far into the top of the pen if it is not secured.
 

JimMc7

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What is the reason for using locktite instead of glue to hold the transmission in. <snip>

CA curing in enclosed space leaves a powdery residue on platings. Usually comes off easily -- at least when discovered in time -- but still a problem for capped pens especially. Loctite doesn't have this problem.

I suppose residue on an unseen transmission isn't really a problem but I don't know if any longer term effects -- and could be none so no big deal!
 

jttheclockman

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Boy this is such a great question on how to fix this and one I keep debating with myself and have not settled on an answer. I have tried to resolve my self to buying the better kits with the finial tranny but there are times we are forced to use these kits such as with those circuit board kits and I like the satin copper kits and satin chrome kits to go with my metal sleeves. I just wish the manufactorers would fix this problem already and make this ever popular line of pens even better.


This along with these kits that have the clips spin after a few uses too is another annoying problem. When you have to glue parts on there has to be something wrong with the design of these kits. Just does not make sense.

These are the things I wish the big players would pick up on when they sneek in here and visit and read our posts.
 
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