Fine Woodworking glue tests

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woodwish

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I may have missed this if already discussed, but did any of you read the article in August '07 issue of Fine WoodWorking about "How Strong is Your Glue"? Although they were testing wood-to-wood glued joints and not gluing brass tubes into wood, the lowest strength of the 6 types of glues tested was the polyurethane (Gorilla Glue). The complaints about the testing on the forums was whether or not they clamped per manufacturers instructions, but we don't clamp tubes in the blanks either. I was really surprised how badly is held up even though I have had good luck with it for the last year or so, in pens and general use in flatwork also.

Good old Elmer's Carpenter PVA glue was tested as "Best Value" with almost twice the glue strength as poly. Type 1 PVA (the waterproof stuff) was listed as "Best Overall". They also tested slow-set epoxy as a close second strongest but was much more expensive than PVA. CA was not tested because most flat woodworkers never touch the stuff, it is mostly used by turners.

I was surprised at their results. I wonder if Gorilla Glue will continue to advertise with them?
 
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Originally posted by woodwish
<br />I may have missed this if already discussed, but did any of you read the article in August '07 issue of Fine WoodWorking about "How Strong is Your Glue"? Although they were testing wood-to-wood glued joints and not gluing brass tubes into wood, the lowest strength of the 6 types of glues tested was the polyurethane (Gorilla Glue). The complaints about the testing on the forums was whether or not they clamped per manufacturers instructions, but we don't clamp tubes in the blanks either. I was really surprised how badly is held up even though I have had good luck with it for the last year or so, in pens and general use in flatwork also.

Good old Elmer's Carpenter PVA glue was tested as "Best Value" with almost twice the glue strength as poly. Type 1 PVA (the waterproof stuff) was listed as "Best Overall". They also tested slow-set epoxy as a close second strongest but was much more expensive than PVA. CA was not tested because most flat woodworkers never touch the stuff, it is mostly used by turners.

I was surprised at their results. I wonder if Gorilla Glue will continue to advertise with them?

Polyurethane glues have poor gap filling properties because when they expand to fill gaps, they foam. That foam has little strength compared to epoxies or some PVA glues. On the other hand, I have read that poly glue is pretty good at gluing dissimilar materials. PVA glue does not adhere well to metals, in my experience. A fairly quick setting epoxy seems like a pretty good choice for pens to me.
 

RussFairfield

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There is more involved here than having a high strength perfect glue joint between the brass tube and the wood.

We often forget that when making bushing to bushing (B2B) pens, that the glue only has to be strong enough to hold the brass tube in the wood for turning and finishing. After that, the wood is held in place by the metal fittings that are pressed into the ends of the brass tube, and the glue serves no purpose other than filling up the gap between the brass tube and the wood so the barrel stays centered on the tube.

The weakness of the foamed Polyurethane (Gorilla) glue can be its greatest asset for a pen. It has enough strength to turn the pen, the foam keeps the wood centered on the pen, but its very weakness will allow the wood to move. This wood movement can be the difference between a crack and not cracking if the pen barrel should shrink. I have had infinitely better success with Ebony, Snakewood, and similar problem species not cracking when I used a Polyurethane glue to hold in the brass tunes in the wood.

The rigidity of epoxy and CA glue will not allow an unstable wood to move, and they are more likely to crack than when a Polyurethane glue is used. I can say "infinite" because the difference has been 99% success with the Poly goue and Zero with the Epoxy or CA glue.

The only disadvantage of using a Polyurethan glue that I can see is that I have to wait overnight for it to cure. CA glue is instant, and we can make it even faster with an accelerator; and epoxy takes a few minutes longer.
 

barrels

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Can you give direction how you use the Gorilla Glue in regards to the brass tube insertion. What prep you do to the drilled area and to the brass tube outsides. I use only Ca currently, but I would like to try Gorrila.

Thank you

Eric Spatt
 

Rmartin

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Interesting, thanks for posting.

I might start using Gorilla as I'm just about out of 15 minute epoxy and I forgot to order some with an order I just placed. How difficult is it to clean out of the tube? Can't be worse than epoxy, right?
 

bjackman

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I have been using Sumo polyurethane glue for a few months now, and find that it seems to cure with even more flexibility than Gorilla glue or other poly glues I've used. I would expect it would eliminate even more cracking than other poly glues I have tried.
Russ, this makes me think about your recent experience with a partially glued in tube. It might be interesting to do some sort of an informal test using our tubes glued into blanks.
 

rhahnfl

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I just watched a great video and he uses Gorilla glue and a 9/32 bit in place of the 7mm. Slightly larger to allow the glue to expand. He also uses base wax to help eliminate the glue in the tube problem. Think I'll try that method.
 

cbonner

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I tried using both CA and Epoxy and experienced nothing but problems. I gave Gorilla glue a try and have not looked back since. It is relatively inexpensive and holds tight. The only thing I do diferently from CA and Epoxy is wetting the wood (in the drilled hole) prior to inserting the tube. I apply glue to the tube, insert it 3/4 of of the way into one end of the blank, rotating the tube at the same time. I then pull it out, throw a bit more glue on the tube and insert it into the other end of the blank. Wait overnight, use the pen mill to clean up the excess glue/ square the blank and throw it on the lathe. Anyhow, I am very happy with the use of Gorilla glue. - Craig
 
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I've not tried the poly glues or epoxy glues for pens yet.. strictly thick Ca on my tubes, but I tend to set up one day and turn the next day anyway, so the overnight set factor would work for me.. I may have to try the Gorilla and see how it works for me.

For glue ups for the pepper mills I make, I much prefer a good wood glue, usually Elmer's, as I think I get a cleaner bond line than with the Gorilla.
 

oldsmokey

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I tried gorilla glue a few times. The last time I made up ten pens, glued the tubes in the blanks and let them sit overnight. The next morning two of the brass tubes had been forced out of the blanks about 1/4". I went back to CA after that.
Has anyone else had this problem, or did I do something wrong?
Ellis
 

Firefyter-emt

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I use GG on almost all my pens and find it much eaiser to clean up over CA or epoxy. A fine round file cleans the GG out of the tube in seconds.

Russ, I had not thought of the flex room of the GG and now that you mention it, I have not had a pen crack myself.. even snakewood.

The cost factor alone is more than enough to use the GG in my opinion, much cheaper than CA of Epoxy and much eaiser than both.
 

Rudy Vey

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This was quite interesting! Just a couple of weeks before this issue came out, our turning club visited Frank Klausz' workshop and Frank entertained us for a good three hours there. He is really the master of dovetails. Someone asked what type of glue he is using in his workshop, and most of us were quite amazed when he said "simple Elmer's white glue". The buy it by the gallon and Frank is testing every batch; he prepares some glue-ups in the evening and then try to break them apart the next day. Glue that does fail his test goes back to the dealer or gets discarded. Remember, these glues have a limited shelf-life. One of the main reasons to use white over yellow glue is the much longer "open time" before the glue sets.

BTW, if you ever have the chance to see one of Frank's demonstrations, go for it!!
 

Texatdurango

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Originally posted by woodwish
<br />....CA was not tested because most flat woodworkers never touch the stuff, it is mostly used by turners....
True, true!

I have been making furniture and custom pieces for 20 years and have had a wood shop for 30 and there has always been one type or another of Elmers or Titebond yellow glue and the past dozen years have added Polyurethane glue in my shop. I never had a need for CA glue, 'course, I just got my first lathe 6 months ago! [:D]

Most turners are a funny bunch, they are the only "group" of wood workers I know of who can't wait six seconds, let alone six hours for a glue joint to set up.

Personally, I think many pen makers are in too big of a hurry. I don't know all the reasons but it seems to be a world of instant gratification and CA fits right in with the hurry, hurry, drill, glue, turn, polish, assemble routine.

Don't get me wrong... I've got little bottles of the stuff, thin, medium and thick by both lathes now and have used it myself to glue brass into tubes. BUT... of the times I screwed up or blew up a blank and took a look inside, there wasn't much bonding going on between the CA and the blank and brass!

So I prefer to use polyurethane for it's intended purpose... gluing, and CA for it's intended purpose... providing a glossy finish on a pen! [:p]
 

Grizzlyss

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I have been using Gorilla glue from the begining, I have had tubes start to back out too, but I always checked then about 15 minutes later to see if they had backed out, while you can still push it back in. Now what I do is I wax plug the tube ends, rough up the tube with sandpaper, put a little GG in the blank and more on the tube, insert tube while turning, then I put these on to wax paper (standing up), and then fold the paper over to cover the other end. Then I either put something a couple of ounces heavy on top of the blanks, or I use a clamp to hold everything in place, and so far no problems at all. Yes sometimes the wax paper will stick to the blank, especially after I have used it a dozen times, but hey, when you square up the ends, it comes right off aynways. I hope this can help someone else out. By they way I just us Parafin wax melted in the bottom of a shallow bowl that is only used for that purpose, and I remove as much wax as possible before squaring, and put it back into the bowl for the next time I melt it.

Sheldon
 

wicook

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I've been using polyurethane (Elmer's version) for quite some time and never had a failure. I did have a tube pushed out once. I then started wrapping a rubber band around the blank after the tube is inserted. The rubber band keeps the tube in the blank quite nicely. I also use base wax to plug the tube end that I shove into the blank. Works like a charm!
 
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