the evil snakewood, again! stabilizing?

[edstreet]

I bought this section of snakewood with a huge order of cocobolo and I turned it last night. Well one section shattered (my fault) and the other turned out super nice but about an hour or 2 afterwards it went CRACK CRACK CRACK CRACK. I have 4 of them and I am not happy at all, little did I know that this is the norm. After reading up on this wood here I am wondering if anyone has tried to stabilize snakewood from companies like WSSI?

Ed

 

[Brewmeister35]

Oh boy, I'll be watching this one with interest. I think most people that use it turn it, let it crack, glue the crack, then finish the pen.

 

[Rifleman1776]

After reading all the advice here, and elsewhere, on the use of Snakewood, I have found a solution to the cracking problem. I don't use it. Same with pink ivory and ebony. Why buy into problems?

 

[Gary Max]

Thats right---only to kinds of snakewood---the one that is cracked and the one that is going to.
I don't buy it either.

 

[rhahnfl]

That's a shame as it is such a good looking wood when it works. Some one must have some trick or tip for making it work. I'm in the camp that it needs to be stabilized but I wouldn't have a clue as to how to do it.

 

[smoky10]

I'm no expert but since snakewood is a very dense wood I can't see it being stabilized. usually more porous and softer wood can be stabilized but not the dense hard woods. I made a snakewood pen once, I started drilling with a small bit and very slowly, went to a larger bit, and finally to the size I needed. I sanded very slowly, I did everything to not produce heat. I finished it with lacquer and for a month no cracks. After 2 months with no cracks I started to brag about it, Six months later, you guessed it, 3 cracks. I could have cried.

 

[wdcav1952]

Many attempts have been made to stabilize snakewood. From my reading, here and at the Yahoo group, none have been successful.

Do a search here at IAP for DCBluseman's tips for working with snakewood.

 

[Fred]

E-mail WSSI and ask if the wood can be successfully stabilized. I seem to remember that it is a very resinous wood and if that is true it may not be a good candidate for stabilization. [8D]

http://www.stabilizedwood.com/clear.shtml

 

[drayman]

ive done six slimlines in snakewood and not one has cracked yet after 4 1/2 months. so im still waiting. colin.

 

[sptfr43]

I think the trick to using snakewood is to learn to work with it and not against it. Snakewood IS going to crack. Accept that and work on dealing with the cracks after the fact and I believe that you will have less stress when you choose to turn it.It works for me.

 

[Brewmeister35]

Cav, I did a search for "snakewood" by DCBluesman" and came up with 2 hits. One of them Lou said somewhere he was 18 for 18 or something like that without cracks. The other was him showing a pic of a nice Panache. Nothing with tips.

 

[edstreet]

Curious,

How about casting it? By that I mean turn it thin, then do the clear resin casting immediately then turn it again to the shape needed.

Ed

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by Brewmeister35

Cav, I did a search for "snakewood" by DCBluesman" and came up with 2 hits. One of them Lou said somewhere he was 18 for 18 or something like that without cracks. The other was him showing a pic of a nice Panache. Nothing with tips.

Brew,

I have it saved somewhere. I'll try to find it. In the meantime, Lou may chime in and post it.

 

[Brewmeister35]

Casting it?? I bet someone's about to try that lol. Man I need a pressure pot

 

[BRobbins629]

Haven't tried this yet, but a few experts tell me to drill the blank and turn oversize without glueing the tube in. Every few weeks, check the hole to see if the tube still fits. If the tube doesn't fit, redrill or file out with a round file. Keep doing this until the hole size is stable. Then let it sit for a few months until it cracks. Fill the crack with CA/sawdust mixture and turn into a beautiful pen.

 

[leehljp]

What Bruce said above! One theory that I have, but haven't tried yet, is that since wood "moves," plus snakewood IS brittle, - glue it with a rubbery glue to allow it to contract and expand naturally. Glue will not prevent nature from doing what it wants to do. Gluing with most CA and most Epoxies prevents any microscopic movement and if SW is determined to move, the only alternative is to crack.

Rubbery adhesives: silicone glue, rubber CA, rubber epoxy. I have the rubber CA (black) but have not used it yet. I also have rubber epoxy and use it occasionally, but not yet on a pen.

One key is to drill and let it set for a while (at least days but often weeks/months) to stabilize before gluing.

 

[karlkuehn]

Man, I gotta tell you, I've been watching this post with interest (and others like it), and I'll tell you this much - I think, after reading about both materials, I'm gonna be much more willing to work with snakeskin blanks than snakewood. I've heard nothing but horror stories, and with the time=money factor included in, even though you have to pay a lot more for the pre-cast snakeskin blanks, in the end, they look way better (sorry, wood guys), and as my ole' buddy Fritz from Woodturningz says, "The greatest investment in a pen is your time, so choose your material wisely."

Damn. I never get that quote right, but you get the idea. As far as I'm concerned, the final outcome of all the snakewood pens I've seen (again, apologies to those who fought the fight), they aren't that remarkable in a wood beauty sense as far as return on investment. There's a ton of other blanks out there (wood and else) that will get more 'oohs' and 'aahs' than the most perfectly executed hunk of snakewood.

Heck, skip the heartache of raw snakewood, skip the price of a snakewood cast blank, and buy 2 or 3 stabilized, double-dyed, super-duper* hunks of something that keeps the turning cuss-free, from a reputable company, and focus on enjoying yourself selling awesome pens! At some point, unless Ol' Grandad planted the snakewood thicket back in the day, or he made a hope chest for grandma out of snakewood, and you got a hunk of it, kiss the snakewood goodbye!

I have enough trouble matching bushings and hardware, getting that perfect finish, finding the right color blanks, matching grain patterns, finding a kit that doesn't have plating issues, and all the other garbage that we go through to end up with a great piece of work without hearing, "crack crack crack" in the middle of a sale!

Whoa. I think I worked myself into a rant there! heh. You get what I'm trying to say, though, right? Let the people who actually try to market 'snakewood' be the ones responsible for making sure they're selling a chunk of wood that will actually do the job you buy it to do.

I'm pretty sure I could make a blank out of Rice Krispies, but if the end result is a gaggle of people pulling their hair out because of things going, "snap-crackle-pop" without even adding milk, then how in the world can I justify selling these blanks?

Again, apologies to those who have successfully turned this junk into something useful, but the ratio of 'turning bliss' to '@#%&! I hate this crap!' is not high enough to warrant the average pen Joe paying good money for something that the customer is not only going to look at with the same appreciation that they do a simple piece of kingwood or spalted maple, but they'll come back on you when their pen sits for a second in the sun and does the crack dance!

My 37 cents worth, 'nuff said. Gah.

*super-duper refers to anything good enough to make you happy at the end of a turning session as opposed to deciding to give up altogether. Side effects may include massive migration towards buying wood from a reputable source, experimentation with alternate materials, complete indifference towards previously well-liked wood species and complete hatred of snakewood. Karl Kuehn can not be held responsible for the outcome of the incorporation of the idea of giving up snakewood altogether, and reserves the right to say, "I told you!" if the application of this recommendation is not fully completed. Diarrhea may also occur, but only if you actually eat large portions of the blanks you are working with, and even then, the effects should be mild. Please consult your doctor if symptoms persist.

[]

 

[edstreet]

OK lesson learned. The most of the pen turners refuse to touch it then I should as well. I was really depressed and bummed out on this one. You put so much work into it and pay an ungodly price for the raw wood (gilmer has some thats 5x5x30 for $900 btw)

The comment about using snakeskin blanks over snakewood is really the way to go, esp when my first one turned out the way it did!

Ed

 

[Brewmeister35]

Anyone find the tips from DCBluesman yet? Anyone ever try using snakewood for segmenting maybe?

 

[Texatdurango]

This is about the umteenth thread I have read about snakewood horrors and I just don't get it. It's not like there are only two woods to choose from, either #2 yellow pine 2x4 stock or snakewood! Actually, as far as exotic woods go, I can think of several dozen that I like the looks of more than snakewood... at a fraction of the cost!

Maybe it's braggin' rights as to who can successfully craft a snakeskin pen, I don't know, but do agree with those who say I'd hate to baby a blank along for three months then on the day of presenting it to someone, you hear this cracking sound from wothin the gift box.... or a week later when you get a phone call!

 

[its_virgil]

I agree with Bruce and his experts. After the hole stops shrinking then GLUE in the tube and wait until it cracks. Then repair the crack. The repaired crack will be barely detectable. As I've said before, a cracked and repaired snakewood pen is nicer than most other wood pens. Here is one I posted about last week. Snakewood cannot be stabilized.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=27488

Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by BRobbins629

Haven't tried this yet, but a few experts tell me to drill the blank and turn oversize without glueing the tube in. Every few weeks, check the hole to see if the tube still fits. If the tube doesn't fit, redrill or file out with a round file. Keep doing this until the hole size is stable. Then let it sit for a few months until it cracks. Fill the crack with CA/sawdust mixture and turn into a beautiful pen.

 

[wdcav1952]

Brew,

I can't find the reference. I will post clips found while looking. BTW, all of these clips refer to snakewood.

The boil cure method is where you actually boil the
wood for 15-20 mins then put it in a sealed plastic
bag and let it sit for about 2 days. then you start
opening the bag a little bit at a time until after 2-3
weeks you just leave the peice sitting on the table. I
usually leave it out of the bag for a week then work
with it. For some reason, I don't understand, the
boiling cures the wood faster and lets it dry out much
quicker. If you don't put it in the bag after boiling
it will warp(badly) and has a good chance to split.
I had gotten some wood that was green but had orders
for it when someone told me of this method, so I tried
it and it worked. When I tried snakewood and it
cracked I started reading on snakewood and found that
it has a very high shrinkage facter. thus cam ethe
experiment with boil-curing the snakewood.

Brew, the following is from DCBluesman. BTW, my eyes are tired and I am giving up looking anymore. I will give the boiling method a try, though.

Posted - Sep 11 2006 : 1:33:36 PM US Eastern Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure that I have any secrets to keep snakewood from cracking, but here's how I handle the blanks. First, I make sure the blanks adjust to my shop environment for a couple of weeks (six months is better). I drill at full speed but only drill far enough for the bit to get warm, then I let it cool. I sometimes have to drill over a two day period. Next, I coat the inside and ends of the blanks with thin CA and wait overnight. I redrill the blanks, then re-coat the inside and ends with thin CA. I turn very fast but take very light cuts...almost like working with polyester resin. I leave the blanks about 1/32" to 1/16" above the bushings, then coat with thin CA or sanding sealer. Wait overnight and begin sanding. Stop sanding if the blank gets warm to the touch. You may need to sand over two days. The next part is critical. Apply another coat of sanding sealer or thin CA and let the blank rest for 2-3 days. Do a final light sand and buff, then set aside for a week. Deburr all ends and assemble. Let sit for another week or two to see if any cracks develop. That's my method.

As for problems with customers, I warn anyone who is interested in snakewood about the inherent dangers. I also explain that I guarantee my pens...period. If it cracks I repair, replace or refund at my discretion. Fortunately, I've not had one come back yet.

Thanks, again, for the kind words.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lou Metcalf
www.heritagepens.com
http://heritagepens.wordpress.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/heritagepens/

“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.†- Nietzche
"It's not the things you don't know that will hurt you, it's the things you think you know that ain't so." - Mark Twain

Need a great website? Contact Kiddo right here on our forum!

 

[redfishsc]

I have never messed with snakewood (though I have a couple of pink ivory pens that have so far not cracked).

My guess would be that the rosin in snakewood is drying and hardening quickly (6 months being "quickly") in these thin veneer-like barrels of our pens. Kinda like how old plastic gets brittle.


If the problem is the rosin hardening and cracking, the only solution I could think of would be to drill the blank and try soaking it in a VERY powerful solvent like Acetone or Lacquer thinner for a few weeks, particularly in a vacuum. IF...IF the blank survives, you may have removed enough rosin to prevent cracking. You could simply allow the blank to dry slowly (wrap in newspaper for a few days) and then glue in the blank (use a rubbery glue as mentioned above).

Now I have to decide whether or not I'm willing to dump $10 in snakewood and a few bucks in acetone to try this.......or maybe I'll just stick to making pens out of Ed's kitty cat blanks[8D]

 

[Brewmeister35]

Thanks Cav, I have to learn to search or something cause I did NOT find that at all.

 

[BigguyZ]

I've never done Snakewood because of the rediculous cost, but I've done a small Pink Ivory bowl, and Ebony pens. I've never had issues with them cracking. Granted this is all fairly recent, but I never heard of issues with these woods until now. I want to eventually do a Snakewood pen, but I guess I'll have to plan WAAAAAAAAY ahead for that one...

 

[edstreet]

OK, I called Mike at WSSI. He said he can stabilized snakewood very well. The problem is getting it to 10% and that is where he likes to see it, 10% or lower. He also said that would help greatly in the cracking and he has not heard of any issues like that after he stabilized it. He is also very aware of how nasty it is on cracking. SO, going to try another batch and stabilize it then see, I think.

Ed

 

[gketell]

Boy stabilized snakewood would be REALLY spendy but I bet anyone who had a source and chose to market it would be hard pressed to keep it in stock.

GK

 

[penartist]

G'day fellow penturners,

this is my first post and I've been reading the snakewood thread with great interest. First and foremost you have nothing to fear from snakewood despite its tendency to split and crack when least expected. When you learn its "character", you learn to work with it.
I have used snakewood with great success as with any other pen blank, but my first 2 tries were are disaster.
When drilling your blanks make sure they are much larger than your normal sized blanks. eg. about 1 inch square for larger pens. If this is not possible, then glue 4 sticks on all 4 sides like ice-cream sticks or thicker to give the blank some bulk. Wait for it to dry and cure completely. Leave the length longer or glue a small scrap piece to one end only.
When you're ready to drill, start on low speed about 1000 revs on a bench drill and drill about 10mm then raise the drill bit to clear the shavings. This is very important because if you don't the heat builds up and the blanks will crack. Continue doing this until you reach the end right through. It won't crack because you have a scrap at the end. If you don't have a scrap piece glued on the end, then drill no less than 10mm before the end to prevent break through. The biggest enemy for snakewood is heat. If you notice any heat build up during drilling, stop and wait 5 minutes, then continue.
When turning, it is imperative to use freshly sharpened tools with snakewood to minimise heat build up. Use speeds of between 900 and 1500 revs and take very light cuts. Again, if you notice heat build up, stop 5 minutes and resume. Turn you blanks down to a whisker to the appropriate size bushes and very lightly (and I mean lightly) sand through the grits. Between grits again wait 5 minutes before proceeding to the next to minimise heat. For all those who like wet sanding/polishing, forget about it with snakewood. To do so requires heat which is a no no.
I didn't mention, I use epoxy to glue my tubes and wait 2 days to fully cure before turning.
I will post some pics when I find out how. Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Evan

 

[devowoodworking]

I thought I might add my two cents worth on this one.
If and I say if, the expansion/contraction is an issue which I doubt, maybe glueing only enough to hold the tube in the blank essentially leaving the blank some give to do it's natural thing and expand and contract without splitting. I'm curious to know from those who've had this problem wether the blank is actually expanding and then contracting from humid to dry conditions. I've had a lot of experience with this issue with my puzzlemaking and can attest to the constant changing differences in wood from summer to winter, but the so called exotics tend to do it far less than say domestic hardwoods such as maple or walnut. Oh well that's my thoughts!

 

[edstreet]

I to have some new info to share on this tip. Few days ago I was talking to mike at WSSI. He tells me the #1 issue with snake wood is improper, incorrect drying, or just plain not dry at all. From what I gather the more wet the more problems. The section I had problems with I do not know the % of it, sadly the scrap sections I do have left is small and not large enough to connect both leads to.

I was also told (not sure who mentioned this) that snakewood does best when it's air dried and not in a kiln.

So perhaps with this new info I can get something workable. I will buy some more and give it a shot and see.

Ed

 

[altaciii]

I've made many pens with snakewood some bought from woodcraft but others from half round trunks bought on ebay. I love the way it looks when finished and it turns nicely. However, with it being as dense as it is, I've found that heat is what causes the cracks. I have very little problem with the wood cracking however if you make a large pen I have found that boreing the blank rather than drilling will reduce the heat transference and reduces the chance of cracking. I will post pics to show some of the snakewood pens I have done.

 

[aurrida]

i agrees with leehip use a flexible glue. i aslo run thin ca in the drilled out blank hole and let i dry before gluing in tube. i also ensure the woods' moisture content is stabalised before turning.

 

[Paul Downes]

I also have been reading this thread with interest. I bought a log section of snakewood a while back and it is a bit of a pain to saw out blanks because of the excessive checking in the log. The way I drill the blanks is by dripping water in the hole a lot and clearing out the mud/chips frequently. The only blanks that cracked while drilling were the ones I got in a hurry with and didn't go slow enough at the exit end of the blank. I would give a big DITTO in that heat seems to be the major enemy. I have only had one crack after it was assembled into a pen. I finish by sanding out to 12000, I assumed that the sanding process/heat dried the blanks suficiantly. I and then soak the blank with BLO for a while before coating with CA. I might have to do some experiments with vacuum under BLO to see if that proves more successful.
I like the idea of drilling, coating the inside with CA, and drilling again, but I would have to dry the wood first. Mayby if one could get some green snakewood and render some resin out of it and use that to soak dried blanks........[?] Ain't wood fun!

 

[DCBluesman]

Thanks to William for finding and posting my old chestnut. I continue to make and sell snakewood pens. They are my number one seller and by far my most profitable ones. Here's one I did for a lawyer a couple of months back.

A couple of months later, I made this pink ivory pen for his wife.

I just received an order from another partner in the law firm for a similar snakewood pen.

I truly believe that a lot of my success comes from the fact that virtually all of my snakewood acclimates to my shop, and continues to dry, for anywhere from 2-12 months. That along with a lot of patience and I still have yet to hear of any of my snakewood pens cracking. Knock on (snake) wood. [8D]