The elusive $250 pen

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DCBluesman

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I’ve been turning pens for less than a year. I’ve viewed every photo in every album and many photos that, for whatever reason, are no longer in albums. I’ve also been a pen collector for about 20 years…give or take.

Every month and sometimes more frequently there is a thread which seems to center around creating a pen that buyers and/or collectors would pay a large sum for. I’ll arbitrarily select $250 as a threshold, not because that’s the right number, but because I have to start somewhere.

The discussions don’t often start with a question about how to make a valuable pen, but more often start with things like: what plating is the best; which pen kit (set of components?) is the best; how do you sell on the internet; or, where can I get better nibs. All of these questions and discussion items make good fodder for discussion. The threads are lively and often informative; however, they bog down a bit when the discussion moves to creating a really highly valued pen.

With that in mind, I started going back through the photo albums and visiting websites. These visits were made in an attempt to answer two questions. “As a collector, which of these pens would I pay $250 for?†“Why would I not pay $250 for this pen?â€

First, the disclaimers. I did not revisit the nearly 4000 pictures on this site. Neither did I visit all of the well over 100 website links that I found. I was a bit arbitrary and selective. That will and does skew my conclusions. I admit it. I also don’t think it seriously detracts from the conclusions I have drawn.

In viewing the pens, I have learned that there are a significant number of members of this site who make beautiful pens. My estimate, based solely on this little experiment, is that probably 100 members make pens which are superior to mine in shape, fit, and finish. This is not self-deprecating, but simply a challenge to me to continue my efforts to make a better pen.

In these viewings, I found about a half dozen pens which would warrant my consideration if there were priced at $250. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think there are quite a few $50, $100 and $150 pens.

Keeping my collector’s hat on, I was forced to consider why there are only a half dozen pens that might spark a $250 response. It’s certainly not the kit style. The pens I selected ran the gamut. It’s not the plating. Photographs don’t let you easily distinguish between 24k plating and 10k plating, between platinum and silver. It’s not the nib manufacturer, nib material or feel of the pen.

In my opinion, it boils down to the fact that most of us do not make pens that look like $250 pens. I’ll now move into the first person and contain my comments to my album only. Even on my finest creations (thus far), the fit may be excellent, but it is not flawless. The finish may be stunning, but it is not perfect. The shape may be pleasant, but it is not uniquely satisfying. In short, not a single pen in my album looks like a pen I would even pick up if I saw a $250 price tag on it. My conclusion thus far is that what keeps me from selling $250 pens is that I don’t make a $250 pen. Pretty simple.

That leads me to question what does a $250 pen look likeâ€"in other people’s eyes? To attempt to answer that question, I went to a number of websites. These were selected based on different factors like the “Wow†factor from posts on this site, the experience fact, Guild Membership and the like. Again, this is not a scientifically drawn sample.

What I found is fairly interesting. Across the board, some of the highest quality pens made by our peers are priced at $35 to $165. There are a few exceptions, but darned few! That speaks volumes. Many of us know pens, collect pens, understand the market place for pens. With all of that information, we do not put our pens in the category of being worth $250.

What are the implications of my study and analysis (and I use that term loosely)?

We need to spend more time working on honing our skills. We have the weapons in our arsenal to make $250 pens, but until we do, it won’t make much difference if we have platinum plating or moon rock plating. Technical perfection is the price of admission for the high-end, collectible market.

We need to create pens that look good and feel good in the hand. I do not weigh nor balance my pens. How can I expect to compete against the 'best of the best' manufacturers for the $250 customer if I cannot guarantee fit and balance in the hand? And don’t get me started on nibs and nib materials. An off-balance pen is just as off-balance with an 18k gold nib!

My conclusions follow. Some of you will disagree and I’d look forward to hearing the responses.

1. We don’t sell $250 pens because we don’t make $250 pens.
2. We won’t sell $500 pens by adding 18k gold nibs because we don’t make $250 pens. The same applies to platings.
3. As long as we focus on the externals, like kit design, kit finish and nib manufacture, we will not sufficiently focus on making a technically perfect pen EVERY TIME.
4. If our pens are not technically perfect, we will not be able to regularly and seriously participate in the market for $250 pens.

In closing, remember that these are experiences and opinions. I’m not holding out that my beliefs are correct. I’m not interested in cutting off discussions on pen kit design, need for better nibs and plating options, or why a particular tool is better than another. Debate away! But don’t forget to work on your skills. That’s the first step on the path to knowledge and accomplishment. In my (never humble) opinion. [8D]
 
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Lou, You brought up some logical and interesting information. You have really put some effort into this and I appreciate it. I for one never have and probably never will achive that $250 pen, at least in my eyes! But, that doesn't stop me from striving to make it. Thanks for your (never humble) opinion![:D]
 
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Lou, Good topic, thank you for putting it out here.

After reading your screed the first thing that comes to mind is that what we make is not unique.

We, most of us, are taking canned parts, choosing a piece of wood and then putting the kit together. I may choose a beautiful piece of olive wood or decide to sacrifice one of the very few pieces of Zitan that I have. Other than that there are hundreds of the same pen out there and thousands lurking in the pile of plastic bags on the shelf of suppliers. Someone else always has another blank as good or better and better is in the eye of the beholder.

There is a lot of very nice wood in the world. Hardly any of it is unique. Even if you find that one piece of wood 3/4" square and 5 1/4" long. It has grain to die for. It came from the tree that is now extinct, happened to have a burl on it and the rest of the world supply got burnt up at a Boy Scout camp out. Who cares? We as wood workers are very attached to wood, unusual wood makes our eyes glaze over and drool run out of the corner of our mouth. However I am not going to pay you $250 for that pen made from the piece of wood mentioned above. It would be very rare that you would run across someone that would give a rip where that fragment of tree stump came from.

The old saying about making a silk purse from a sows ear applies here and you point that out. Putting a $100 nib on one of our pen kits doesn't make it a $250 pen. It just makes it a home made pen with a nice nib.

You can find all kinds of people raving about how much better that 18k nib writes than the gold plated steel ones we use. I have no idea but lets say one in 10,000 people use a fountain pen regularly. Out of those users I bet there isn't 1 in 1000 that could tell the difference, blind folded, between the writing feel between the two. A poorly set up pen with a solid gold nib has no magic about it, it still is a poorly set up pen. A person who "knows" fountain pens can make steel nibs write as beautifully and smoothly as any solid gold nib out there. But to do that you need to work with them every day and understand how and why they work or don't work. This isn't something a weekend pen turner will learn very quickly.
 

Dario

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Lou,

I think most of the members here, judging from what little sample I've seen, are not striving to sell $250.00 pen or $500.00 just because there is little market for it. I think quite a few I've seen have the talent and know how to make them though.

I am taking your word that there is no one selling on that range though because I haven't went through the sites as extensively as you did.
 

Rifleman1776

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Lou is usually so logical and discerning with his posts and information that it hurts to digagree with him. But, this time I must submit that he missed a huge point with regards to high dollar items, in our case, pens. What you can sell an item for depends on who you are selling to. A $50.00 pen at your local craft show would eaisly bring $250.00 on Rodeo Drive. There are folks with large disposable incomes who are looking for ways to dispose of their money and brag that they paid high prices. So-called 'gourmet coffes' that sell for $35.00 a pound when it is really just $3.00 a pound coffee, $250.00 sunglasses which are worth only $10.00 but have some designers name on them, etc., etc. The product is almost secondary to the 'suck up' and status factors.
 

wicook

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Thanks, Lou, for a well thought out commentary. I know that my pens are not in the $250 range...not even close, actually. I consider myself to still be a novice who's quite content to sell a slimline pen for $25 CDN (that's about $20 USD). I expect that as I become more consistent in making pens with seamless transitions from wood to metal and finishes that don't have any flaws that I'll be increasing my price. That day, however, seems to still be a fair ways off... [;)]
 

emsmith

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A very well thought out and reasoned post.[^] You make excellent points about balance and fit. I have only been turning pens since Christmas and getting the pen to 'feel right' is something that I am really struggling with. Which leads me to the following questions -

As a collector have you started analyzing your collection for weights, design features, e.g., dimensions, proportions, types of curves used (elliptical or parabolic) and balance points? If so would you be willing to share this information?

Alternatively, do you know any museum/society that might have this type of information? Because I know nothing about pen collecting [:(] could you recommend some reference materials?

Thanks.
 

GregD

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Personally, I strive to make the $250 pen everytime I turn one. I don't think my skills are there yet. I make pens to sell. There is very little market for a $250 pen.
If I turn a masterpiece and no one likes it, is it still a masterpiece? I don't think so. It might as well be a $20 pen.
 

Mainebowlman

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Pen kit: $5.95
Blank: $3.95
Shipping: $3.85
Glowing admiration by my wife: Priceless

I'll bet some of those service men and women with our freedom pens wouldn't part with them for $250.

i Guess when my name gets as famous as Gucci, Hilfiger, etc. and/or I do get in a shop on Rodeo Drive (LOL), I can add that zero after my two digit price. However, odds are I will probably never make that pen that actually sells for $250; but as Bev said that journey (striving to make that kind of pen) is probably the unstated goal for many of us.

Jack (in the sun...finally!!!)
 

RussFairfield

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Links to some sites where you can learn about fountain pens. This is not a complete list, but it is enough to get you started.

http://pw1.netcom.com/~danhle/home.html
"The Fountain Pen Page". Good basic information, and some recommended pens to purchase for a beginner.

http://www.luttmanns.com/pens/intro.html
More information from a historical perspective

http://www.nibs.com/index.html
a lot of links to the manufacturers

http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles.htm
"Stylophiles" is an online pen magazine. A lot of information and excellent photos.
 

emsmith

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Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />Links to some sites where you can learn about fountain pens. This is not a complete list, but it is enough to get you started.

http://pw1.netcom.com/~danhle/home.html
"The Fountain Pen Page". Good basic information, and some recommended pens to purchase for a beginner.

http://www.luttmanns.com/pens/intro.html
More information from a historical perspective

http://www.nibs.com/index.html
a lot of links to the manufacturers

http://www.penlovers.com/stylophiles.htm
"Stylophiles" is an online pen magazine. A lot of information and excellent photos.
Thank you.
 

PenWorks

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Way to much thought and analizing went into Lou's post for me to desipher today. The body & mind are moving way to slow after my little bash last night [:D]
I have no problem with selling 45-125 pens all day long. That is my target market. I raise the anty when one comes off the lathe, that says, "I'm special, I'm perfect, I'm unussual" and for those, now that they are armed with gold nibs, they are $250.00 , but those are very rare occassions.
 

Darley

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Thanks Lou for this and I'm faraway to do a $250.00 pen, but like Anthony say it can happen in a one off situation by a special customer who want a special pen and depending what he want on it, I suppose that the price will go over the $ 250.00.
 

DCBluesman

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Lots of excellent points in these responses! Russ, as always thank you for sharing your resources with us. There's some value at each of those sites! Frank--I hate to say this, but we aren't disagreeing. [:p] You bring up valuable points which were excluded from my post. You'll have to find something else to disagree on! Dario, I can't say that we don't have members whose portfolios include $250 pens. That dollar amount was arbitrarily selected and I only went through a bunch of albums not nearly all of them. Bev, Greg, Jack, Mac and Serge--you all make pens to be proud of. I hope that you don't think I believe that you stop even one step short of your best effort. Tony--you are absolutely right about one-off sales. They definitely happen...thank heaven.

emsmith (I'm sorry to address you like that, but your profile doesn't jog this old memory into remembering your first name)--I'm no expert when it comes to pens, but I can tell you some of the ways I discriminate. Most pen collectors have their own thoughts and I doubt many follow mine. Weight--I'm not crazy about pens that run much over 40 grams. Most of mine have clips and at that weight they turn over and wrinkle a shirt pocket, even a highly starched one. As for features, on newer pens I prefer pump (piston-type) fill systems. I do use cartridges, but I'm never as happy with them. After I've used my pens, I clean and dry them. With cartridges, I throw out a lot of ink and add to the plastic at the landfill. I like snap-closure pens. I have both, but there's something satisfying about a clean, crisp SNAP! when you place a cap on the body of a well-made pen. In general, I prefer a medium length pen, 6 to 6-1/2" in length. My hand is fairly small for a man, so I prefer a body diameter around 0.5". I like the pen to have balance just nib-side of the centerline. The weight of the pen causes the nib to touch the paper, rather than the pressure of my finger.

If anyone is interested in "the other side of the coin", there is a Pen Collectors Society whose site can be found at http://www.pencollectors.com/ .
 

leehljp

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I believe in setting my goals high. "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" I have just begun pen turning and I may never reach such a high goal in getting the combination of 1. material. 2. design, 3. finish and 4. Marketing/Photography - to equal $250.00, but my goal is just that of Brownings and Lou's. I am not afraid to fail and fail again trying. I know it may take time, but I keep trying for each to be its best. Trying for me is on the extended timeline as I currently do not have the time daily and sometimes weekly to do this.

I ruined about 15 slimline blanks trying perfecting my finishing technique. My focus was on finding a finish that would be beautiful, consistently reproducible and lasting. Now that I have the basics down, I am moving on to design and wood selection. I am not a artist in this field, but I am learning.

The problem with the $250 pen is that by the time I arrive at making a pen that will bring that, Cokes will cost $10.00 a can! [:D]
 

Daniel

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Lou,
I find this to be a very interesting statment on a subject that does seem to come up time and time again without really having anything strognly stated in regard to it.
Being an opinion of course it would be only one of many many more. but to this date I believe it si the clearest opinion I have seen on this subjec. in reading it I reflected onmy own turning and related skills and tend to agree with you very much. I to thing that the occasional outstanding pen from my lathe. Regardless of why that particular pen is outstanding, does elude to that $250.00 dollar range. used as you did as an arbitrary number. but I consistantly see the elemints and more that you mention that prevemts all if not the majority to be outstanding.
I have made some progress recently in that direction. and can identify a few areas that would improve my finished product. in all I think this conversation has many nooks and crannies that would be a benefit to explore. what is good balance? what is exceptional fit and finish?
thanks for digging into one more of those areas that seem to want to eternally remain dim.
 

timdaleiden

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I don't think that most of us here are trying to make $250.00 pens.

We are mostly hobbyists, small business owners, and wood workers (artists).

For the most part, (I think) we just enjoy turning out useful and attractive pens that make great gifts for people that are hard to shop for.

If somebody is sufficiently skilled, motivated, and well equipped, they could easily produce pens that could justifiably be sold for $250.00 or more. For the most part, this group is not focused on that goal, IMHO.
 

DCBluesman

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Originally posted by timdaleiden
<br />If somebody is sufficiently skilled, motivated, and well equipped, they could easily produce pens that could justifiably be sold for $250.00 or more. For the most part, this group is not focused on that goal, IMHO.
267 views in 12 hours tells me something totally different, but that's just my (never humble) opinion.
 

JimGo

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Tim,
I'm focused on that goal, just a long way from achieving it! [:D] But I like to think that I'm getting closer all the time.
 

timdaleiden

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Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />
Originally posted by timdaleiden
<br />If somebody is sufficiently skilled, motivated, and well equipped, they could easily produce pens that could justifiably be sold for $250.00 or more. For the most part, this group is not focused on that goal, IMHO.
267 views in 12 hours tells me something totally different, but that's just my (never humble) opinion.

Lou,

I viewed this thread numerous times myself. The number of views does not necessarily indicate the number of actual people viewing this thread, or actual interest in producing high end pens.

Perhaps you should re-evaluate the value (or importance) of your opinion. It is your opinion, one of many opinions. What a boring and stagnant world we would live in, if everyone agreed on everything.

I am always interested in what other people think, but I do not contend that my view of things must be accepted by others. Everyone is different, and so I feel no discomfort in using the IMH(humble)O acronym. You obviously feel differently, so I guess I have to live with that.

BTW, I stand by my previous post, and humble opinion.
 

ldimick

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I must admit that Lou's post, like so many others, have made me pause to think and evaluate the topic quite a bit tonight. In many ways I agree with Lou. But I think that a different slant on this is available.

One of our limiting factors is the material that we work with. First, with wood it is dificult to have a high quality pen that can be consistently reproduced that would allow us to make limited edition runs. It is the individual character of every single pen that makes woood so beautiful in my eyes. A piece of titanium has a higher cost associated with it than most pieces of wood we buy. Part of the perceived value of a pen is the cost of the material. For example, look at the cost of BOW. It has a perception that allows the price to be placed higher than similar woods, as does stabilized woods.

The next piece of material is the nib. The truth is that most people cannot tell a good nib from a mediocre nib - except for perhaps the $250 buyer. As far as the rollerballs I am incredibly shocked at the junk that gets sold as part of our kits. When I pay $25 for a Statesman kit I want a refill that is not coming to come apart and leak ink all over my cap. (Not a dig at CSUSA since it is the same refill that others use.)

We must also consider the major tool that most of us use - the lathe. It has a lot of limitations in it as far as what we can do to customize a pen. It is going to be round. Unless we go to a CNC type machine we are not going to be producing different shapes. Unless we think outside of the box (I hate that phrase) we just make the same thing as other people with a slightly different shape or color.

Next comes the kits that we can choose from. There are shortcomings with EVERY single kit available. Look at all of the threads that we have had on plating, thread fit, etc. Some of the nicest pens (IMHO) are the Statesmen, Gentleman, and Baron kits. But each of those has issues that detract from them. I would like to be able to get a black titanium in a Jr Statesman but it's not available. I would like to see some different bands as well. But without some expensive tools I don't think I can make what I am looking for.

One thing that I have seen lacking in every pen turning group or site that I have browsed is a serious discussion on pen design. Not normal kit design but how to determine which color combinations are preferred, ornation, etc. - The aesthetics - We seem to be more interested in how much we can charge for a pen than we are in determining what the market wants.

If somoene is willing to pay $250 for a pen then somoeone is making what the market wants.

As far as not seeing any $250 pens here - well I have seen some from Lou, Pat, and some others that would claim a $250 price tag in the right market and setting.`

I firmly believe that most of the peopel here could make a $250 pen if they wanted to spend the time and effort to do so. But IMHO it would not be worth the time or effort in terms of $$ per hour to do so. It would be very satisfying to be able to claim it but in terms of $$ per hour I don't think it would be worth it.
 

Daniel

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Lynn,
In my opinion your comment touches on several reasons that the $250 pen is not more of a focus in this group.
the number of hits does indicate the interest level of the subject matter. wether that be pro or con interest, there is still obviously above average interest in this thread.
I also see that lack of conversation concerning more advanced design. As I stated before to Lou, thanks for stepping outside the norm. I don't see enough of that. risk of being flamed for asking the questions others have not is one huge reason others would remain silent. Silence from those that know what it would take to make a $250 pen could be a big reason the presute of that pen is not more obvious.
 

Old Griz

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Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />
Originally posted by timdaleiden
<br />If somebody is sufficiently skilled, motivated, and well equipped, they could easily produce pens that could justifiably be sold for $250.00 or more. For the most part, this group is not focused on that goal, IMHO.
267 views in 12 hours tells me something totally different, but that's just my (never humble) opinion.
Lou, in my never humble opinion, 267 views in 12 hours does not constitute an opinion that our members are focused on creating $250 pens... it does constitute an opinion that they were curious about what this thread was about..
IMHO, the fact that the majority of those posters did not respond to the thread said to me "OK, fine and dandy.. not exactly what I am interested in.. I will never be able to do it anyway".. I do that in a lot of threads myself.. I will read them and if it is not my cup of tea, I go my merry way... and I don't doubt that a lot of members do that to my threads..
As for the $250 pen issue... I would love to be able to produce a pen that sold for that kind of money... maybe, God willing, I someday will. But am I focusing my pen turning on that goal.. not at all... I am focusing my turning on producing the best pen I can make and sell at a fair market price for the area I live in. If I lived in the Balt/DC area, I am sure my pens would sell for more than they do here in Western MD..
But the said truth of marketing our products is that they are not necessities, they are luxuries and therefore the pricing is usually reflected by the amount of extra cash flow the people in your area have. If you live in a affluent area, you can usually get more for your product..
 

PenWorks

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Originally posted by ldimick
<br />

I firmly believe that most of the peopel here could make a $250 pen if they wanted to spend the time and effort to do so. But IMHO it would not be worth the time or effort in terms of $$ per hour to do so. It would be very satisfying to be able to claim it but in terms of $$ per hour I don't think it would be worth it.

I whole heartingly agree with that statement Lynn. On my nicest pens commanding that kind of money. If you compare the $$ per hour, it is a loosing propisition. But the satisfaction of the artistic expression, is priceless and worth the effort. [:)]
 

btboone

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I find the statement to be true for the even more expensive ones. They take me weeks of design and effort. At this time, I can't "afford" to make $1500 pens because they take too much time!
 

RussFairfield

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Let's get real with this conversation. We cannot make a $250 pen from a plastic bag of parts. Lets face the fact that a kit pen is the same as a paint-by-number picture. Someone else designed it; and then they provided us with the bushings, parts, and tools to make it. Other than the quality of the fit and finish and barrel materials, they all look like the picture in the catalog. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but we can never make the $250 pen that way.

What we can do is make a $100 pen that will compete very well with the commercial pens that sell for a similar price and use similar plated parts and steel nibs. We can even add the value of the gold nib to the same pen, and sell it for $150.

But, the $250 pen is the entry level into a piece of "art". And, who defines "art"? The BUYER; and there are buyers for the $250 pen out there for the finding. But, they aren't going to pay that price for a "kit pen" with a steel nib. We may not agree with their perception of a "kit pen", but they have the money, and they are calling the shots.

What does it take to make a $250 collectors pen?? As a minimum, the $250 pen has to have a gold nib; not because it is better, but because that is what the customer demands. That is the reason for these discussions. But there is more than just the nib. We have to start thinking outside of the "plastic bag", and start designing our own unique pens. We have to move beyond pens that are made with brass tubes, bushings, and Jet Mini lathes; and we have to quit worrying about who sells the cheapest pen kits.

Getting into the "big money" requires that we spend some money. We have to start thinking in terms of a small machinists lathe and a milling machine as prerequisits for making the $250 pen. We will have to start thinking about making our own parts and fittings. We may want to learn silversmithing and plating techniques or work with someone who has those skills.

But most of all, we will have to learn the language of the fountain pen and learn how to write with one of them. Unless we are willing to learn and show others how to use them, we cannot sell fountain pens at any price.

Remember "Penmanship"?? It hasn't been taught in schools for 40 years. We live in a ballpoint world. We use a ballpoint pen by pressing it into the paper, and ripping through the paper is the only limit to how much pressure we can apply. The fountain pen glides across the surface. A ballpoint user writes with their finger movement. A fountain pen writer uses a whole arm movement, resting on the heal of the hand, with the pen resting on the paper with no more than its own weight. Knowing how to do that is "Penmanship". If you don't know what I am talking about, you will NEVER sell a fountain pen to anybody at any price.

It has been said several times that these discussions of the $250 pen are out of place on this forum. I disagree with that. I thought this forum was about "penturners", learning to become a penturner, and then learning how to become a better penturner. Part of becoming that better penturner can sometimes involve taking our craft beyond the kit, learning about the advanced techniques, and persuing the "art" of the pen. If that doesn't belong here, then where should it be??

Feel free to disagree. I hope I didn't get too many people mad at me. If I did, that's their problem.
 

Thumbs

Member
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Mar 13, 2005
Messages
872
Location
Muncy, PA, USA.
<b>Lou</b>, I hope you appreciate this place as much as I do! [:D] Great discussion and observations about "your observations" so far! Both "Pro" and "Con"! I agree and disagree with just about everyone's posting here! It's just great! What a great place to suffer other viewpoints![:p]

<b>And you told somebody I was just a curmudgeon!..... Ha!</b>[}:)]
 

arehrlich

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Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
109
Location
West Hills, CA, USA.
Russ,

I agree with most of your post, however IMHO, I don't believe we all need to become master machinists to produce the "$250" pen. What we do need is an enhanced sense of creativity and the ability to use the various materials around us in a unique and artful way.

I've seen some incredible pens developed around 'kit' parts. Just look at some of the ones highlighted on the Penmaker's Guild site. They are innovative pieces of art. Did they use a milling machine and machinist's lathe. Probably not... just as the ceramic artist doesn't need an electronically controlled multi-speed turntable - a foot operated one works just as well.

The "art" is what seperates the high end collector's pens from the everyday, albeit expensive, desk pens that we might create from a Gentleman's or Jr. Gent's kit.

Add in intricate art carvings; scrimshaw; mother of pearl inlay under a number of layers of hand rubbed lacquer... and bring it to the right audience, and you'll have a pen that could sell for $250+.

The problem is that most of us make kit pens because it's fun and somewhat profitable (if you count the satisfaction factor). And there is nothing wrong with this. There is a bigger market for the $25 to $150 handcrafted pens then there is for the $250+ pieces of art.

Can the 'kit pen' become a piece of art... I believe it can, but there is lot's of work that would have to go into it.

I'm certain that there are a good number of artisans in the group, but most want to go to the fair and sell a bunch of pens.

Room for all... but I'd sure like to have the time, talent, and drive to create a work of art... not necessarily for the $250, but for the satisfaction of creating something with my own hands that someone is willing to give me that much money for.

Alan
 

JimGo

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Jan 24, 2005
Messages
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North Wales, PA
Alan,
I think you managed to say what I said here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6754 , only in a much more succinct way. Well said.
 

RussFairfield

Passed Away 2011
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Feb 10, 2004
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Location
Post Falls, Idaho.
A couple comments and clarifications.

There is a large gray area between the pens that sell for $150 and those that sell for Lou's $250 number. However there will always be two things that a $250 fountain pen MUST have, and that is a gold nib, and the finest of craftsmanship. Those are the demands of that market.

Everyone has been discounting the size of the market for the $250 pen. There IS a market for that pen, and it isn't insignificant. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there. I have been selling between 20 and 30 pens a year to the $100-150 market, and I see the $250 market as being the bigger. My only reason for not breaking into that higher market has been because I haven't been making a pen with a gold nib. I have already described in an earlier post where that effort is taking me. The risk is that nobody will want my "$250 pen" that I will have to sell for $500.

No, the machine shop is not for everybody, just as everybody will not want to make a $250 pen. Anthony will be giving us a way to get closer to that market with a finely crafted kit pen with his offering of the gold nib. But getting past that market, and into pens that sell for more than the $250 will soon get us into having to cut our own threads to escape the limitations of the kit with its brass tubes and plated fittings. I don't know how to do that with any degree of repeatability within the confines of a Mini-lathe, and off the shelf parts. Repeatability becomes a factor when we have 4 to 6 hours invested in a pen and making only 1 in 10 isn't good enough.

Again, one persons opinion. Feel free to disagree, but I will only listen to those who have "walked the mile" and really tried to make a $250 pen.

And now I will shut up on this topic.[:D][:D]
 

driften

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Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
456
Location
Issaquah, WA, USA.
Originally posted by penworks
<br />

I whole heartingly agree with that statement Lynn. On my nicest pens commanding that kind of money. If you compare the $$ per hour, it is a loosing propisition. But the satisfaction of the artistic expression, is priceless and worth the effort. [:)]

I agree... the idea of the $250 pen (or more) is more of an artistic expression.

I would like to make a $250+ pen and some day I will. Many here could make one but don't feel the need to. Its more of a market decision then one of ability. I think the higher up you go in market the smaller the market is and its harder to reach that market. The true collectors are out there and they are much more demanding then the $20 -$80 pen buyers.

I would like to have the discussions of what makes a collector pen. I love the discussions on building around a 14k nib or where should be the best balance or weight of a pen. I think only a small group of members here think its worth the trouble but for us few its important. I for one am trying to think outside the kit. I don't want to be just a kit maker. I don't know that the return on investment will be very high but its an "artistic" thing.

On another note here is what one pen company (Nakaya) feels makes the "ideal fountain pen"

Design Concept 1 : Barrel must be thick. Radius of the barrel is 13mm. The length with the cap at the end of the barrel should be a little less than 160mm. Length of the nib 22mm. The balance point is in the rear, at the point of 56-57%. This is the golden rule of fountain pen.


Design Concept 2 : Nib must be big. A 14k gold big nib is highly durable and is suitable for heavy writing. There are 9 point styles, ultra fine, very fine, fine, fine /soft, medium, broad, very broad, ultra broad and music. Any professional writer can find his/her favorite point size.


Design Concept 3 : it must be treasured collectors. Every single pen is handmade. Design is suitable to be called "art craft" and never be boring.


Design Concept 4 : they must fit the hand. To fit the hand and prevent from it from slipping, deep convolutions are carved throughout the barrel. These convolutions reflect the heat of the hand when the pen is held. They work like a radiator of a car. This prevents the air in the barrel from expanding, and results in a consistent flow of ink. The feel of this "convoluted holder" is very unique and is the first design of its kind in the history of fountain pen manufacturing.
 

Rudy Vey

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Joined
Jan 26, 2004
Messages
2,032
Location
South Plainfield, NJ, USA.
This is a quite interesting site! There is also a page with the dimensions of the pens, and their weight, as total and as the pen without the cap. Very good information on the weight - you see the weight for the barrel, i.e. the writing part is from just a tad under 10 g to a maximum of 17 gramms!! The heaviest pen listed is 28.7 gramms. This is very light and a discussion we had some time ago here about the weight came back to my mind (a pen is "cheap" if it is a lightweight). I remember that Anthony once made a very light pen by leaving the brass tubes out, can't remember the exact weight, though.
 

Skordog

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
55
Location
Wixom, MI, USA.
Wow! This has been quite an interesting discussion. I happen to agree with a little bit of several of the main debaters here but not wholeheartedly with any one of them.

First off, I am still somewhat new to this pen obsession as I have only been turning for 6 months. I do believe that with the right kit and nib and the right customer you should be able to produce a $250 pen.

BUT....(and this is a guess) you also need to produce a pen that feels and writes fantastic in addition to looking good.

Having just started looking into the world of fountain pens it is obvious that there is a very large market for incredibly expensive pens. And to tell you the truth I don't find all that many of them attractive. So what is it that commands those $300, $400, $1000+ prices?

Part of it is obviously designer labels and limited editions, but I have to believe that these pens must feel wonderful to write with. Sort of like driving a high end car. Same functionality as the lower end car but it just feels better. So weight and balance have to come into play. And this is something that is going to be much harder to control with wood as compared to metals and plastics which have a more consistent density.

Just to set the record straight about my intentions - I am not trying to build and sell the $250 pen. At this point I have given away 50 pens and have only sold 1. But I find this discussion very interesting which is why I am one of those hundreds of viewers.

But I am interested to explore the world of fountain pens to find out why it is so attractive to so many affluent people. I actually have not written with a fountain pen since I was a kid and I'm sure whatever I used back then was the $5 disposable kind.
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2004
Messages
549
Location
Oak Ridge, NC.
Originally posted by Rudy Vey
<br />This is a quite interesting site! There is also a page with the dimensions of the pens, and their weight, as total and as the pen without the cap. Very good information on the weight - you see the weight for the barrel, i.e. the writing part is from just a tad under 10 g to a maximum of 17 gramms!! The heaviest pen listed is 28.7 gramms. This is very light and a discussion we had some time ago here about the weight came back to my mind (a pen is "cheap" if it is a lightweight). I remember that Anthony once made a very light pen by leaving the brass tubes out, can't remember the exact weight, though.

Rudy,
From what you posted, I take it you are looking at a web site somewhere. Can you provide a link or direction to it?
 

Rudy Vey

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2004
Messages
2,032
Location
South Plainfield, NJ, USA.
Originally posted by Mac In Oak Ridge
<br />
Originally posted by Rudy Vey
<br />This is a quite interesting site! There is also a page with the dimensions of the pens, and their weight, as total and as the pen without the cap. Very good information on the weight - you see the weight for the barrel, i.e. the writing part is from just a tad under 10 g to a maximum of 17 gramms!! The heaviest pen listed is 28.7 gramms. This is very light and a discussion we had some time ago here about the weight came back to my mind (a pen is "cheap" if it is a lightweight). I remember that Anthony once made a very light pen by leaving the brass tubes out, can't remember the exact weight, though.

Rudy,
From what you posted, I take it you are looking at a web site somewhere. Can you provide a link or direction to it?

Go to:
http://www.nakaya.org/eindex.html

Then select "Product" and here you can see the following: details of their pens, their dimensions and other infos about their pens. As I said a very informative site.
HTH
 
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