El-Toro / El-Presidente question

[Firefyter-emt]

Help me out here guys. I like the look of this kit hardware, but I am not fond of the shortness of the El-Toro. The El-Presidente appears to be much better balanced, however it's not avaiable in a FP. Now BB sells a "conversion kit" to make it into one, however I was looking at the two kits and noticed that they used the same drill bit sizes. So I ordered a spare set of tubes for the El-Presidente and the El-Toro FP. Well hey, guess what. I checked the 2 sets of tube with my calipers and the cap tubes are the same, and the body tubes are the same (there was a mild varriation on OD, but so tiny it's a production variation) However, it's a hair under 1" longer.

Soooo.. it would appear if you want the FP in this style, with an ink pump, buy the El-Toro and some replacement tubes for the El-Presidente. You will also need the ink pump, so add in $1.00 (or $4.00) plus a $.60 set of tubes and the cost to make the El-Presidente in a FP (streched El-Toro) is under $5.00. The conversion kit is $8.00 to $14.00.

Now, am I missing anything here? is there an issue with my plan? The cap tube is the same, so cap length will match and I am just making the body as long as the El-Presedente so it will not look odd. (LOL, "odd looking" based on what the El-Toro normaly looks like!)

What I really want to do is to base this "mod" on the El-Toro with a closed end pen and a replacement cap final. Done like this I think would look great with the very subdued looking kit.

 

[KenV]

The closed end pen package with Ed Davidson (as sold by BB at Az Sil) shows an extended body el Toro to accomidate the pump; or you can leave it short and use the little plastic tubes filled with cheap ink.

You do not need the long tube if you are going to use the closed end pen form. Just be sure not to get the walls so thin that the closed end portion becomes pieces of pen.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

I did notice that. I would love to do a closed end, but this long tube will allow you to make the El-Toro a long pen that can take the ink pump with all standard parts. It just will cost you a spare set of tubes. As far as the closed end, I personaly think the long tube would be alot better than say 1.25" or so of unsupported wood, That's a lot of wood with out a tube, I would be afraid of crushing the hollow wood if I leaned heavily against something with the pen in my pocket.

 

[vick]

None not missing anything that is the only way I make the el toro. Youw will not get a converter since it does not come with the El Toro and the pen is way to heavy for you to post the cap.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Here is a question. Has anyone made their own final for one of these? It is a press in chunk like the Jr.Gent, but I am thinking that it might not be too hard to make. It might require a bit of work, but has anone else done this?

 

[gerryr]

In order to make a wood finial, you really need a collet chuck. I made one last year for a Baron using a Jacobs chuck and it was not a satisfactory setup.

On the El Toro, if you want to make a closed end, there is no need to have a long tube. You only need about 1/2" of tube for the nib coupler. For the rest of the barrel, you only have to worry about the diameter of the pump, so you could use something like a 5/16" bit to drill the rest of it. Then you shouldn't be worrying about the wall getting too thin.

 

[vick]

Originally posted by Firefyter-emt
<br />Here is a question. Has anyone made their own final for one of these? It is a press in chunk like the Jr.Gent, but I am thinking that it might not be too hard to make. It might require a bit of work, but has anone else done this?

I am actually suprized that I have not.

I hate to disagree with gerry but you do not need a collet chuck to make one.
I chuck the piece for the final in my scroll chuck with pin jaws with the part that will be the press fit into the tube faceing the tail stock. If the piece is to small I glue it on a waste block before chucking. I then turn the piece over sized and size the tendon to fit the ID of the tube. Many time especially with fountain pens you will need to drill a hole to hollow the inside of your tendon so that the nib will fit. I then take the piece insert it into the blank for the cap and turn it on a pin chuck just like I would a solid body pen.

With this way you are pretty much guarentees that the final and body with match exactly.
note - Mark with sharpie on the finals tendon and on the inside of the brass tube for the cap before turning it helps to line it up when you assemble.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Just curious here, would Corian work as a pin chuck?? It would be very easy to make one to the exact diameter right down to a step for the bushing. If it was left round and long enough my pin jaws could hold it nicely. Heck, I could even glue a brass tube on the chuck end to keep the Corian safe from jaw damage. I am just not sure if it has enough holding power due to the material? What do you think?

 

[gerryr]

I would think corian should work fine for a pin chuck. It probably won't have the longevity of steel, but it should work anyway. I saw a guy at one of our local woodturning club demos use one made from wood, the pin was a piece of dowel.

Mike, it's OK if you don't agree.[8D] I didn't have any pin jaws. I actually tried my regular chuck using just the jaw slides , but gave up after whacking my knuckles twice. It hurts![:0]

 

[vick]

Well I will agree with Gerry on this one Corian is a good choice for a homemade pin chuck because it is so stable but may not last as long as steel. I had a guy that would make my pin chucks custom to what ever tubes I sent him for $5 so I got spoiled. In the past when I wanted to do a solid body and did not have a pin chuck I would make a jam chuck out of maple with a steel rod through it to hold in my collet chuck. It works very well but for $5 it was worth it to me to just have a pin chuck made most of the time.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Ok, so to make the flat notch, from what I see, many people use a finish nail cut down (1"??) and the "top" of the notch is level with the finish nail, right?

 

[vick]

Originally posted by Firefyter-emt
<br />Ok, so to make the flat notch, from what I see, many people use a finish nail cut down (1"??) and the "top" of the notch is level with the finish nail, right?

That should work. The length of the pin should not matter very much the ones I get from the machineist were probably only 1/2", but 1" should work fine.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Thanks Mike.. I want to give this a try and see how well it works out for me.
I would love to buy the mandrels from BB, but if I want to do a couple pen designs, I hate to drop $20.00 just to "test it" If I really like one kit I probably will end up buying one down the road though.

 

[RussFairfield]

I read all of these messages and I must be missing something. I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Are you making a "closed end" on the pen?

If you are, then the tube length means nothing. Its only purpose is to hold the threaded adapter for the grip and nib. Since there is nothing attached at the other end, it only needs to long enough to provide an adequate gluing surface to the wood.

The diameter of the hole past the end of the tube only needs to be a large enough diameter to clear the reservoir of the fountain pen. There is nothing critical about the depth of the hole in a fountain pen because there is nothing connected at the bottom, and it only needs to be deep enough to clear the reservoir. Just be aware that the Schmidt reservoir is longer than the ones that come with the kits.

The depth of the hole in a rollerball pen is more critical because of the little spring that bears against the end of the refill. Too deep is better than to shallow and too short. You can always glue a plug in the bottom of the hole, but making the pen 1/4" longer can be a problem.

Other than that, I don't understand the problem with tube lengths.

There is no need to use anything other than your normal mandrel for a closed end pen. Just grind 3 short flats on the 1/4" threqds at the end of the mandrel. Grind just deep enough to remove the full depth of the threads, and no longer than 1/4". When you drill the holes in the blanks, go down into the bottom of the hole and drill a 7/32" hole that is 3/16" deep. Screw the end of the mandrel into this hole, and support the open end of the barrel with the normal bushing. Hold the mandrel in a collet chuck, or fill in the space on the mandrel with pen tubes and spare bushings. Those adjustable stop collars also work well for this. You can still use the brass nut over the altered threads without any problem. Don Ward (its virgil) posted a sketch of this arrangement a few weeks back. It works just as well and is a lot cheaper than buying a special mandrel. The only problem might be that the length of the pen will have to be 3/16" longer to accomodate the depth of the little hole in the end of the pen.

Please ignore this entire message if none of it is appropriate with what you are doing.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Hey Russ.. I like that idea!! I just happen to have a 3" long cut down rod I made for dip fountan pens so I can use it in my drill chuck, it will fit just perfect in my normal pen collett mandrel!

Ad for the tube length, My original post was about making the El-Toro (with posting ends) fit the converter pump. (I personaly relate the ink cartriges like a donut spare one a car)

I was looking at the El-Toro (sold as a FP) and the El-Presidente (not sold as a FP for some unknown reason) However BB sells the nib & holder with a converter pump to make the El-Presidente into a FP. What I noticed and checked with calipers is that the long tube from the El-Presidente is the exact same tube, just longer. This means if you want the El-Presidente as a FP you simply need to buy the El-Toro and the spare tubes for the El-Presidente.

Then we got into the whole closed end deal as I think the El-Toro is just begging for a closed end body.

Again, I really like your tip, but I am curious, why grind the flat on the threads? Is this to help it self thread?

Oh, and about the length of the tube, my concern about not having the tube in 1/2 the blank was more about drilling the blank like normal and having a very thin barrel. Take the Churchill for example, once turned to the bushings, there is very little material and I personaly feel with normal use it would snap like a twig. However, fitting it to the converter will solve most all of this problem. I still think that there is a very weak point where the diameter of the brass tube ends and the smaller hole starts.

 

[RussFairfield]

Originally posted by Firefyter-emt
<br />Again, I really like your tip, but I am curious, why grind the flat on the threads? Is this to help it self thread?
/quote]

Yes

 

[KenV]

Rich had a nice "side bar" discussion of the topic of turning closed in pens in the latest issue of the AAU publication. It included use of compressions mandrels, pin mandrels, and use of a pen mandrel. The example shown used flattening 3 facets on the threads of a pen mandrel. The implication is that the flats allow some relief for cuttings/pressure and reduced risk of splitting the blank.

There are several ways to get a firm grip from the inside. We do tend to follow down the paths demonstrated by experienced sources, but know that there are other ways possible.