El Grande Problems

[beck3906]

I have made a few El Grande FP's and Rollerballs lately and have had a problem with 2 where the plastic end on the lower barrel broke off when dropped a slight distance. Now, I know dropping one is a stupid thing to do, but it appears the plastic end is rather susceptible to breaking at the joint with the lower body. Has anyone else had a problem with breaking parts?

Thanks
Rick

 

[leehljp]

Someone mentioned in the last week or two that Churchills can do that. Churchills use the same fittings. Then someone else mentioned that the real culprit was probably too much pressure in inserting the fittings or pushing it a tad to much at the end - this causes a small crack in the plastic housing allowing it to break when dropped or put in a pants pocket.

 

[Randy_]

Perhaps not what one might call a common problem; but the question does come up more frequently than it should. Apparently there is a design defect with that kit and it does have a weakness that sometimes causes difficulties. Some folks have quit buying the El Grande kit because of this problem.

I have read some speculation that the breakage is caused by improper assembly techniques on the part of the pencrafter. I've never done one of those kits so I can't say one way or the other.

You might take a look at this current thread discussing the same subject.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29207&SearchTerms=el,grande

 

[Firefyter-emt]

I posted in the other thread, but to note it again, I always have used a press block from day one and I have broken all 3 of my personal pens in this series. My Chruchill was a week old and got caught in my daughters hair, and dropped onto the hardwood floor. One El-Grande just felt "loose" one day and then broke when I put the cap pack on. The other broke when my wife pulled the cap off instead of un-screwing it.

The coupler is very weak and it does not need to be installed improperly to break. In fact, I would be shocked if you managed to press the pen togather without the drilled press block! If you were to see how thin the plastic insert that the entire cap is held on with combined with the way it's glued in, you would see why they break. I really hope they redesign it with a simple metal insert like the large Gents use.

 

[potter]

is Berea designer and producer of these kits and shops as example Arizona , the distributors? Hope this kit will be redesigned, its the most beautiful desingn of the penkits. What says Berea , what's their view on the problem of the Churchills?

 

[Rudy Vey]

Originally posted by potter
<br />is Berea designer and producer of these kits and shops as example Arizona , the distributors? Hope this kit will be redesigned, its the most beautiful desingn of the penkits. What says Berea , what's their view on the problem of the Churchills?

Harry, Berea is the maker of these kits (they have their own manufacture in Taiwan), they sell these directly (you should contact them if you want to buy directly from them). Arizona Silhouette, Beartooth Woods and Woodcraft are the re-sellers.

 

[ashaw]

Drill a 12mm hole in 3/4" wood. The plastic coupler will fit into the hole leaving the trim ring seated on the wood. Press the barrel from the opposite end. That a way taking the stress away from the coupler.

 

[potter]

Rudy,hi, it semms so, that Berea wants to sell to Europe only by resellers. I ordered at penblanks.ca and was very contended. The best-they speak german[] has CSUSA a manufacture too, where the Juniors ec. were made?

 

[wdcav1952]

The thread Randy referred you to is another good discussion on the kit in question. When I first had the problem of breakage a few years ago, I questioned my supplier who in turn called Berea. Their answer was that they had never heard of the problem before, and seemed to question my abilities. Since then I have used a part of an El Grande cap from a turning that was not worth finishing as a press block and the problem disappeared. Interestingly enough, the instructions at the Berea site do not recommend a press block.

While metal parts are certainly stronger, one of the charms of the El Grande kit is the light weight. When I check pens from my (regretably small) collection of Pelikans, I find mostly plastic parts. Each to their own, and obviously some are rougher on their pens than others, but I find the El Grande and Churchill kits an excellent pen to make.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by wdcav1952<br />.....who in turn called Berea. Their answer was that they had never heard of the problem before, and seemed to question my abilities......

WC: I received the same kind of response from Berea one time concerning a bushing problem. (Not the El Grande.) Funny they didn't know anything about it since it had been discussed on IAP and other forums for several months. As to my skill level, I might not be the best pencrafter that ever was; but I sure do know how to use a dial caliper to measure bushing dimensions.

The Berea folks are not always as helpful as they might be. And, yeah, I know there are a lot of folks out there who have been very happy with Berea.....no need for comments from the other side. I'm not saying they are bad, just that there is significant room for improvement.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by ashaw
<br />Drill a 12mm hole in 3/4" wood. The plastic coupler will fit into the hole leaving the trim ring seated on the wood. Press the barrel from the opposite end. That a way taking the stress away from the coupler.

That is a great tip, Alan.

Thanks!!

For those that might not have a 12mm bit, will a 15/32" bit work? It is only 3-1/2 thousandths smaller than a 12mm.

 

[potter]

thats a very good tip, i tried it promptly with a peace of POM (plastic). It works very well,
thanks
i took the 31/64, the drill for the smaller tube, it works!

 

[Rmartin]

I only make the tropical line of El Grandes, but I've never had a problem with them breaking. I do like the light weight, but there's way too much plastic on the kit. I remember seeing a tute on how to replace the plastic with wood, which looked sweet, but it was a whole lot of sugar for a little ant hill.

Rmartin

 

[DCBluesman]

I've been reading comments for ages about there being too much plastic on some of the component packages such as the El Grande and the Churchill. I find it interesting in that virtually all of the large-scale manufacturers use plastic exclusively. While there are a few customers out there who think heavy is better and more metal is better, I've been in the fountain pen collecting game for many years and that is NOT the feeling of the majority. Lighter is better. LESS metal is better. Most collectors respect their pens. Shoving one in a pants pocket would make most of us cringe. Droppping one is unthinkable. Pants pockets and drop tests are for BICs.

As for the peculiarities of these two kits, I have made scores of both and have NEVER had one break at the joint. Pressing plastic without a press block doesn't make sense for any kit or component. This doesn't just apply to pens. Think about what you are making and the stresses you are placing on the pieces. Think about the assembly. Each motion in making a pen can have a positive or negative influence on the final instrument. At then end of each experience, capture what worked well, what didn't and what can be done to improve the process. This is continuous, not just until you make a nice pen.

Many pen makers make these pens without these problems, so at some point, it can't be the arrows... it has to be the indian.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

But Lou, my question would be better posed as how many pen makers who "use the pens" have never had one break. IMHO just to rely on your customer to come back because it failed is a VERY poor test of a product. You may never get back someone who had a 24k plating fail, or broke thier pen because they broke it, however the chance that the ever buy again is another story.

So, lets take this on a side step... Who uses this series on a daily, or semi-daily base have never had one break? In fact, better yet, go to the polls. I will go make a pole on it, this should be interesting.

 

[DCBluesman]

Lee - It might surprise you to know that there are others on this forum who have years of experience, who have kept track of their work, who know their customers, who have used the products they sell and who have a helluva lot more of a track record than you do. I offer a three-year, no-questions-asked warranty, so I doubt there are many folks out there who did not return a failed product that they paid $100 or more for...particularly when I pay shipping BOTH ways. Also, despite your insinuation here and in your poll, I have carried a Churchill as my daily user for months...and different ones at that. If these were consistently flawed pens, I doubt they would be a staple in inventory of some of the most well-known and most successful pen makers (and sellers) on any of these forums. Now, I'm not saying that there is no room for improvement. Every product has room for improvement. But to decide that YOUR poll on a product is better than MY test and experience is pompous and arrogant...in my (never) humble opinion.

 

[Rudy Vey]

I have made EG's from the day it came out and never had one fail, break or else. I don't use a press block, I assemble carefully with an arbor press. My recommendation is to use a de-burring tool and make sure no glue or other crap is in the brass tubes before assembly.
One of my colleagues has one of my EG's and here only the gold on the clip has worn off (Upgrade Gold, not TiAu)- but he uses it as his daily writer for four or even five years. I offered him replacement for free, but he likes this pen so much (light, right size etc plus now a nice patina) that he refused.
Personally, I use an El Grande Streamlined FP for several years now and still have my very first EG (RB) and they are both fine.
I have no experience with the Churchill, I don't make this model.

For warranty, I pretty much do the same as Lou - and so far had to replace only one pen. This was a Baron with a double celtic knot in blood wood and maple (and yes, the blood wood on this as well as three or four more pens failed and cracked - the wood was stored for years in form of pen blanks in my basement) - this pen I replaced with a DCK Baron in IBO and Holly. The customer was very pleased with this free exchange (and upgrade with IBO), so he bought more pens from me.

I have, however, repaired my share of pens, mostly FT Americans. Some people do put pens in their pant pockets (why I don't know, for me this is not the smartest place to carry a pen), or worse in the back pockets and then sat down, breaking the transmission. Easy fix, though.

 

[its_virgil]

I too have made and sold many many el grandes. I have 3 or 4 that I use on a rotation basis. I don't use a press block in my uncommom practice of making pens. I will say that the el grande is very very sensitive to ANY glue at all inside the tubes. Either the wood will crack on assembly (very thin veneer on the EG) or the plastic parts will bind on the glue and break. MY FAULT, not a design problem. The only pens (all kits) I've had returned were damaged from user abuse but I don't remember any of them being an EG. I haven't made the churchill so no comment on that one. The EG is one of my favorites...a really nice pen. I like the grip, the size, and the weight.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[potter]

thanks for this discussion, it was very instructive
Harry

 

[Rmartin]

I've been reading comments for ages about there being too much plastic on some of the component packages such as the El Grande and the Churchill. I find it interesting in that virtually all of the large-scale manufacturers use plastic exclusively. While there are a few customers out there who think heavy is better and more metal is better, I've been in the fountain pen collecting game for many years and that is NOT the feeling of the majority. Lighter is better. LESS metal is better.

Do you really believe molded plastic is better than gold or silver?

I would agree that lighter is better, but I prefer precious metal and wood over plastic, and if that puts me in the minority, so be it.

Rmartin