Dang berea-Dang me

[sparhawk]

I ordered some pen kits from Arizona Silouhett and was all excxited about turning my new pens. Some carbara's and a couple of european fountain pens (both of which I have never turned.)Had a blank from Woodcraft I picked up the other day (part of thier new acrylics)called water that I waited on the kits for.Really wanted to do the fountain pen in it.Last night drilled the blanks and painted the tubes. Didnt want to wait on the blanks to dry but I forced myself to wait till today. WEnt out earlier and glued the tubes in. Didnt want to wait for them to dry but did anyway. Finally with a big smile on my face went out to the shop and started fitting the blanks to the bushings. Wait, somethings wrong here! The bushings that came with the kits were too big for my mandrel. Called a.s. and found out these bushings are for a "b" mandrel.Berea doesnt make those bushings in an A mandrel size, Am ordering a B mandrel as we speak.Quess I'll have to wait. Pays us newbies to look closer before we order.[V][xx(]

 

[doddman70]

If its a berea kit that woodcraft carries you can get the "A" mandrel bushings from woodcraft.

Shane

 

[LostintheWoods]

Or you could get a "B" mandrel right here, from Joe Collazo. He does great work, is very reasonable, and quick turnaround!

 

[sparhawk]

Thanks for the ideas. But A.S. sells the mandrel rod to fit my mandrel for 50 cents more than the bushings at woodcraft. This way if something comes up where I need it for some berea kits I will have it. (Besides A.S. usually gives a freebie so i may come out ahead) THanks

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Ahhhh... the joys of turning between center, no mandrel needed! [] A, B, C, D.... it don't matter none. [] (plus, a new dead center only cost's $5.00)

 

[sparhawk]

Thanks firefyter for remoinding us newbies what we have to look forward to. One day[]

 

[leehljp]

Originally posted by sparhawk
<br />Thanks firefyter for remoinding us newbies what we have to look forward to. One day[]

Once you start the "no Mandrel" approach, it becomes habit forming. [}] Order a Dead center and get started. It also eliminates the wobbles, chatter and out of round, etc (if the bushing itself is not out of round.)

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Hugo, honestly... if I had it to do all over, I would never of bought a mandrel. I find the dead center is a quarter of the cost, and is a huge leap in making the pens perfect.

I have a tray that sits on my bed ways. I will have my calipers sitting there and when I get close to the bushings, I start to pop the blank out and measure the blank with the calipers. I fint this so much better without the bushings and while the blank is in hand. This seriously takes seconds to do without the mandrel.

Although it seems as though the blank would slip, it's super rare that this happens. Normaly it's while roughing out acrylic and it's most likly a catch that could blow a blank.

Google "The Little Machine Shop" and they sell them for just $5.00. Once you "train" yourself that you do not need to turn both blanks at once, your pens will start becoming a lot eaiser to make.

 

[Ligget]

Good advice Lee, my dead centre is on it`s way!

 

[Rmartin]

plus, a new dead center only cost's $5.00)

It's a little more than that isn't it?

what do you use on the other end?

It requires a special drill chuck that costs big bucks doesn't it?

Rmartin

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Oh Rich, you got me... I lied. You do have to pay the shipping too!! []

A MT-2 dead center will cost you $4.95 and shipped to my home, $5.35 via priority mail.

You do not need a drill chuck, you lathe has a taper in the headstock already, you just pop it in just like a pen mandrel. At the other end you simply use your live center...
No drill chuck needed this way.

This is the dead center they sell for $4.95.

www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1890&category=

And as seen on my lathe just tonight.

 

[Rmartin]

Hmmmm, I may have everything I need. I bought one of those dead centers, but I put it in the other end. I get confused with the terminolgy of live, dead, head and the different names these things are called. I have a mandrel that screws onto the side with the motor, (that's the head right?), and I put the dead center on the other end. I guess I did it backwards. Now that I think about it, I believe I bought two dead centers. Can I use one on each end?

Thanks for clearing that up
I've got the perfect blank to try it with tomorrow!

Rmartin

 

[underdog]

Wait... what the?

What are those tubes sticking out of your blank? Those aren't the actual pen tubes are they?[?]

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Yea, you really need a ball-bearing "live center" in the tailstock. You could get away with a dead center in the tailstock for a little but, but you will very quickly ruin the bushings. "If" you try it, at least wax the tailstock center, but I highhly recomend against using the 2 dead centers.

The dead center will drive the pen blank off the headstock (motor side) by just a friction fit. You need very little in fact, I just snug it up and turn, if I find that it's slipping a bit I will snug it up a hair more. The tailstock (on your right side) will have the live center whick allows the blank to spin freely.

I find this method much more accurate than the pen mandrel ever was. Combine that with the ability to remove the bushings and GENTLY hold the blank without the bushings for applying CA finish you gain the ability to never damage a CA finish while removing the "glued on" bushings.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Jim, those are the standard pen bushings. You need to use the bushings as the tube alone is not strong enough to turn the pen by. I did have to make a set of custom bushings for slimline pens though. Any 7mm pen kit can not use this method without a custom bushing. I have a small metal lathe so I just made some 1" long bushings that fit inside the slimline tubes and the outside was the same as a slimline bushing. Before I turned them on the metal lathe I drilled a 60 degree center hole and used that to refrence the new bushing. I did not need a thru hole for these bushings, just a center point. In fact, they are better than the OEM bushings because I have a lot more contact at the centers.

Here are my custom slimline bushings.

And while I am at it, here is a blank getting the CA applied without bushings.

 

[bassman00]

Firefyter - Interesting. Been away from pen turning a while and things have certainly changed. Just to make sure I understand the procedure. I drill and glue in the tubes just like I was using a mandrel. Only instead, I run the dead center in the headstock and the live center in the tailstock into the bushing and turn one section of the pen at a time? That's it? I think I'll have to order up a dead center and give this a shot.

Thanks.

 

[underdog]

Thanks for the illumination....

Forgive me for saying so, but unless your tolerances are better than the pen manufacturers (how could you not be, I ask myself), and your custom bushings are very tight, it looks like you could be back to the original problem as when you're using a mandrel... [B)]

Also, in this case, it's not just a matter of ordering a dead center either is it?[]

Yes?[^]

 

[leehljp]

Originally posted by bassman00
<br />Firefyter - Interesting. Been away from pen turning a while and things have certainly changed. Just to make sure I understand the procedure. I drill and glue in the tubes just like I was using a mandrel. Only instead, I run the dead center in the headstock and the live center in the tailstock into the bushing and turn one section of the pen at a time? That's it? I think I'll have to order up a dead center and give this a shot.

Thanks.

That is what he did. Works well. Give it a try. I got started doing this because of oily wood that would allow the CA to separate and lift in spots when the bushing would be removed. I use a lot of cocobolo, Japanese persimmon (almost out of that) and other ebony wood. I have not had a single problem with that since I went to the mandrelless system a few weeks ago.

 

[leehljp]

Originally posted by underdog
<br />Thanks for the illumination....

Forgive me for saying so, but unless your tolerances are better than the pen manufacturers (how could you not be, I ask myself), and your custom bushings are very tight, it looks like you could be back to the original problem as when you're using a mandrel... [B)]

Also, in this case, it's not just a matter of ordering a dead center either is it?[]
Yes?[^]

Take the bushings OFF to finish them with CA. The bushings are to hold them firmly while turning down with the chisels and get the blanks to the general size. It may seem like an extra step, but it is fast and allows you to check the tolerances quicker than taking a turned blank off of a mandrel.

The No Mandrel approach eliminates 2/3s of the out of round, wobble and chatter problems. No more over tightening the nut - which causes out of roundness, no more mildly bent mandrel problems, chatter is gone that comes from mandrel flex.

If someone has already overcome all of these problems, then no big deal, just keep on - knowing that you have a great acquired skill. But if you haven't mastered these problems, the mandrel less way eliminates a lot of problems.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Jim, I am a little confused by your post and maybe Hank cleared it up already. With my slimline bushings, I made them on a metal lathe and the small shaft (inside the tube) is within .000? of perfect to the original mandrel size because that's how far my digital calipers go! The outside step (bushing) is at .330 if I remember corectly. I measured a bucnh of my slimline hardware and this was the most common size of the hardware. I always measure my hardware and seperate if from the others. If I have an under or oversize part I can adjust my blank to fit.

Bassman, I have been doing my pens like this for close to 6 months now and I will never go back. On my lathe, jut to make it better, I have a counter weighted ball handle on the tailstock. I seriously give it a gentle slap and it spins away from the blank. It takes me seconds to pop the blank out of the lathe. I then have a tray on my ways (see it in the shop section here) I drop the bushings into the tray and measure the blank with calipers. It's much eaiser with the bare tube in hand. I probably have the blank out close to 25 times while turning and sanding the pen.

I also had some "looseness" in my cigar bushings on any mandrel, this method no longer makes that an issue, they are tight and centered now.

I can reproduce the slimline "between center" bushings if someone wanted a set, but right now time is limited so it might not be very fast. If you really want a set, let me know..

 

[underdog]

Ok.. well your comment about the tolerances is well taken. .000" is pretty close. We'll let you slide on that one.[] I'm sure that with those custom bushings you have eliminated most of the problems inherent with mandrels.

What I don't understand is whether you have to create a custom bushing for every application when using the dead center drive? I mean, since the tubes are not sturdy enough, doesn't each pen style take a different custom bushing?

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Ahhh.. I see, while I like the fit of the 60 degree center bore when I make my own, there is no problem with any of the "step" bushings for the pen mandrel. The dead center and live center will hold the original bushings just fine. It will center the blank as well or better than the mandrel. With the mandrel you have to have the bushing hole loose enough to slide on the mandrel, now a human hair is about .002 to .005 the centers will be a "tight fit", not a slight gap fit. If you look back at the photo of the un-turned blank in my photo, the bushings you see are just the normal bushings. I only hold it by the bare tube to apply CA to the blank. This is just snug enough to spin the blank and theres no preasure on the blank at all.

Like I said, kit's like slimlines and 7mm Euro's need a custom bushing. I used to turn just the slimlines on the mandrel, but after making a set of step bushings I no longer need to. .000 +/- is tight, but can be done with a metal lathe without major effort. 1/8 of a turn on my compound is .020 so if I just give it a bump it's easy to spit that down.
I have not turned a Euro in ages after I saw a band fail from wood movement. There are better kits that take less to build than the Euro, and to be honest, the cheaper cigar is a better seller than the Euro for me.

Does that clear up the bushing issue?? The gravy to this method is the ease it takes to measure the blanks for fit while sanding and turning as well as for a good CA coat. If the dead center was say, $20 or $30 it might be more of an issue, but for about $10.00 shipped it's a great way.

Heck, even back to the original post about the "B" mandrel... If you have to buy a B just for that kit, you can buy a dead center for half the cost with shipping factored in! []

Oh, and about the original question and poster... Sorry for the hijack![]

 

[Rmartin]

Lee, thanks for taking the time to explain your procedures. And thanks for the tip about the ballbearings. I'll put that back in before I make another pen.

Before I forget, I would like to take you up on your offer of custom bushings. I don't make a lot of slimlines, but the Streamline is one of my mainstay pens. Could you make me a set of 7mm bushings, and one or maybe two, for just in case moments, sized for the center bushing of the Streamline. Time or cost is not an issue.

One other thing. I have at least one kit which has the center bushings connected. I'm wondering if two blanks could be turned without a mandrel using one of these type bushings. I suppose it would be too unstable, but the centrifical force with light cuts, and it might work. What do you think?

Rmartin

 

[underdog]

I'm still confuzzled...[^]

If the standard bushings are on the end of the 60 degree points of the dead and live centers, what holds the tube centered? The way I'm picturing this, the end of the bushings on the blank/tube side are just butted up against the end of the tube. There's nothing to center the tube....

What am I missing?[?]

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Jim, I am guessing that you may only turn 7mm pens, am I correct??

With any pen kit larger than a 7mm tube, the bushings go inside the tube to take up the space. For example, a cigar pen uses a 10mm tube. That tube would be 3mm too large to fit a pen mandrel. For this kit, the bushing has a 7mm hole, a 10mm step that the brast tube slides onto and the proper side step for the hardware.

See if these photos clear it up.

Now this is what I had to make for a 7mm tube slimline. The thin step is the same size as a pen mandrel, These bushings go inside the 7mm slimline tube and allow the pen to be turned to the .330 step bushing to match the hardware. Any 7mm kit would require one of these. For me, that's not a major issue as I can just make my own. However, for any kit other than a 7mm, the original bushings will go inside the tube and then turning between centers can be done. The top two bushings are the ones I made, the bottom two are standard slimline bushings.

BTW, Richard.. sent you an e-mail. []

 

[johnnycnc]

Pretty neat concept;what made you think of that?[?]

Originally posted by Firefyter-emt
<br />Now this is what I had to make for a 7mm tube slimline. The thin step is the same size as a pen mandrel, These bushings go inside the 7mm slimline tube and allow the pen to be turned to the .330 step bushing to match the hardware.

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Eh?? Not too much thought to be honest. It's the same way they do it for all the other kits, just with mine they are solid and only have a center hole with a 60 degree bevel. A set of "center drill" bits are designed to put a bevel in the end of metal stock so your metal lathe can hold the stock. Unlike a wood lathe, it's a bit hard to crank a live center into a steel rod.

Oh, and here is my new pen blank end mill sander in process of being turned. It will have a 7mm shaft, close to a 1" sandpaper surface and will be able to fit into a drill chuck to sand the end of a blank. The lathe shown is a 1930's Craftsman 109 series and is what the bushings are made on.

 

[underdog]

Ok... sorry to have been so obtuse. I knew there was something I was missing. That makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks for those pictures!

I have made a Euro before, but it's been a while back, so it's no wonder this cranium let the memory escape...[:I]

I've wondered how folks get their pens to line up so well. I couldn't get a perfect matchup with a brand new adjustable mandrel.

 

[sparhawk]

Thanks for all the input . Guess i will have to buy a live end(mine that came with the jet mini is not the 60 degree it is the small one with the cup around it) and a dead center and try this. And Lee I will have to take you up on those bushings for the slimline.