CSA please get this right! (Lesson on drilling!)

[redfishsc]

CSA claims that a 15/32 drill bit is the proper size bit to drill for the smaller tube of most of their larger pens. They have been ROUND AND ROUND with penturners about this, and they know that most all of us agree that this is too large a hole. My first Gent, a year ago, wound up with a blowout b/c the hole was too big in diameter.


I had been using a 29/64th bit, which is a tight fit but seemingly better than the cavern that the 15/32 drilled.



No more! I was making my first Imperial this past weekend out of Tru-stone turqoise. I used the 29/64th bit as I have done with wood blanks many times, no problems.... but when I pressed the nib coupler into the tube, it split the Trustone. DOH!#$^!#$%@#%%


Is there not a fractional drill bit that I could use?
And why does CSA, which is an otherwise superb company, stick to this 15/32 nonsense? I have drilled several types of wood and acrylic blanks and it is always too large a hole for my comfort.

 

[PatrickTaylor]

So, which is the best size to use for a CUSA Gent? I'm doing my first this week.

 

[gerryr]

I don't know if this has anything to do with your problem or not, but, I learned this the hard way. I overheated an "O" bit because it was dull and thereafter it drilled holes that were grossly over-sized. I sharpened and re-sharpened but it made no difference. It was drilling a hole about 0.020" oversize. I bought a new bit and can now drill a correctly sized hole. I've made several Gents and Statesmen recently and have used the 15/32" bit and haven't had problems with the hole size. Granted it is a bit bigger than I prefer, but 15 minutes epoxy takes care of the gap and I've had no trouble at all while turning. To answer your question, there is no fractional drill other than either the 15/32 or 29/64. You would have to look for an odd size metric bit, like 11.6 or 11.7mm.

 

[Nolan]

Here is a chart and shoet answer is no common drill bit in between.
http://www.saw-online.com/Tips/Drill%20Bit%20Hole%20Diameters.pdf

 

[ed4copies]

Use a micrometer to measure the tubes, select a bit that is very close, under is better than over. IF you are painting, take that into consideration. Buy a round file and enlarge the hole to YOUR specifications, which may not be the same as MY specifications and are SELDOM the same as the instructions.

Never fails.[][][]
"God helps those who help themselves!"

 

[gerryr]

You can use a rat tail file in an electric drill, IF AND ONLY IF you can run the drill in reverse.

 

[Monty]

Spend the $40, they are on sale at least at my local HF, and get the complete set of TiN coated bits from Harborfreight. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1611
At http://www.alloutind.com/ you can get a set of bradpoint metric bit delivered for about $15. Click on "Liquidation" on the left hand side and then scroll down. And you will have to call in and ask for the $5 shipping.

Then as Ed said, use a micrometer or calipers and measure the tubes and pick the bit that meets your specs.
HF has this one on sale from time to time for about $15 http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=47257
DON"T WASTE YOUE MONEY ON THIS ONE - http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93293
DAMHIK.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Test, test, test. As good a company as CS is, they just can't seem to get it right, or even come close sometimes, on drill bit sizes. Charts can be helpful but do make test holes in scrap wood. A constant source if confusion and irritation with sizes has been the Jr. Gent. II. I forget (and don't want to know) what CS finally settled on. But I use 10.5mm and 12mm, they work perfectly for me. My glue is 5 min. epoxy. (BTW, if I remember correctly, CS originally reccomended 12mm for the <b>SMALL</b> hole on the Jr. Gent. II).

 

[mrcook4570]

All drill bits are not created equal. Each is manufactured to different tolerances. If your bit is slightly oversize or has some runout, then the hole will have quite a bit of slop.

The blank can only split if the brass tube expands considerably when parts are pressed into place. This may be due to glue residue in the tube, part going in crooked, or oversize part/undersize tube. If the part requires a noticeably greater amount of force to insert, then stop and file the brass tube.

 

[winpooh498]

Originally posted by Monty
<br />Spend the $40, they are on sale at least at my local HF, and get the complete set of TiN coated bits from Harborfreight. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1611

We have been looking at the different sets at HF, and I am wondering why you chose this one vs. <u>the 115 Pc. 135 Degree Split Point Titanium Nitride Coated High Speed Steel Drill Bit Set </u>? I thought that I had read that the split point is better? I could be wrong. []
Both sets are TiN coated HSS, but the one you recomended is M2 HSS. Is that why, does the M2 make that much diffence? We want to make sure that we buy the correct set.

Thank you in advance.
Dawn

 

[Brewmeister35]

I've received a few bits from them that have turned down shanks and they were turned bad causing a TON of run-out. Might want to double check that.

 

[gerryr]

I can't believe we're flogging this thing again. If somebody doesn't like the drill bits that are available for a kit, don't make the kit. The Gent/Statesman has been around for quite a while and lots of them have been made, so I think the drill bit sizes must be reasonably decent. I've been here for nearly 2 years and don't recall any discussions about the 15/32" bit. I remember lots of discussion about CSUSA changing the recommended bit sizes for the Version 2 Juniors, but nothing about the Gent.

As far as the Tru Stone splitting, after thinking about it a bit, I'm not really surprised. The CS kits are almost always a pretty tight fit. With something that is unlikely to take expansion forces easily, the hole must be bigger to allow for the tube to expand when the parts are pressed together. I learned that the hard way making a bone Jr. Statesman and drilling the hole so it was a tight fit. When I pressed the nib coupler in, the bone cracked. As soon as it cracked, I realized it was my fault for not considering that. I try to consider things like that now.

 

[mewell]

Craft Supplies USED TO recommend a fractional drill bit for the smaller tube in the Jr. Gent/Statesman... NOW the are recommending a 10.5MM for the lower and the same 12.5mm they always have for the upper.

Take a look here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23106&whichpage=1#240986

 

[skiprat]

If I don't have a suitable bit and the tube is tight in the hole then I use the same drill bit to file the hole. I hold the bit in the chuck and use it as a handle. (Obviously the chuck is removed from the machine) I do this if I think the CA glue will set before I've pressed the tube in. The flutes of the bit work quite well as a file. I have used a normal round file but the hole ends up not being round anymore.
If I made and sold loads of pens then I would invest in the optimum bit for the material / kit.

 

[Glass Scratcher]

Originally posted by Monty
DON"T WASTE YOUE MONEY ON THIS ONE - http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93293
DAMHIK.

You are absolutly correct.

 

[Rmartin]

hehe......very funny, thanks Gerry!

Rmartin

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />....The Gent/Statesman has been around for quite a while and lots of them have been made, so I think the drill bit sizes must be reasonably decent. I've been here for nearly 2 years and don't recall any discussions about the 15/32" bit. I remember lots of discussion about CSUSA changing the recommended bit sizes for the Version 2 Juniors, but nothing about the Gent.....

I agree with Gerry on this one, too. There have been discussions on drill bit recommendations by CSUSA for some of their kits and they have even changed some of the recommendations recently; but I don't recall ever seeing anyone post about problems with the lower tube of the Gent or Statesman.

According to the information I have, for my Pen Reference Chart, Red, the lower tube of the Gent/Statesman has an OD of 0.45". A 15/32" drill bit should give you a hole that is 0.4688" which is 0.019" oversize. That is actually a very sloppy fit. Most kits for which I have acquired data generally have holes that are oversized by 0.006" to 0.011". Can't begin to guess as to what your problem is; but the recommended bit size is "NOT" the problem!!

There are lots of variables here so the prior recommendations to drill test holes in scrap material is an excellent one.

 

[Monty]

Originally posted by winpooh498
<br />

Originally posted by Monty
<br />Spend the $40, they are on sale at least at my local HF, and get the complete set of TiN coated bits from Harborfreight. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1611

We have been looking at the different sets at HF, and I am wondering why you chose this one vs. <u>the 115 Pc. 135 Degree Split Point Titanium Nitride Coated High Speed Steel Drill Bit Set </u>? I thought that I had read that the split point is better? I could be wrong. []
Both sets are TiN coated HSS, but the one you recomended is M2 HSS. Is that why, does the M2 make that much diffence? We want to make sure that we buy the correct set.

Thank you in advance.
Dawn

The TiMN split point was what I intended to post, just picked the wrong one to link to. This is the split point set.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=32928

 

[Willee]

I used the 29/64th bit as I have done with wood blanks many times, no problems.... but when I pressed the nib coupler into the tube, it split the Trustone. DOH!#$^!#$%@#%%

This is a swage fit.
If the diameter of the plug is to large it expands the tube.
When that happens brittle materials crack.
Wood expands a bit but that puts stress there and could crack later.

I have found that most of the time this is caused by glue or other stuff in the tube. Clean it out real good with a rat tail file.
Make it shine even if you do not see anything in there.
Use a spot of med super glue on the inside of the tube just before pressing it in.
I have never had Corian, Ivory, Acrylic, or other brittle material crack when I took the time to do this.

 

[Blind_Squirrel]

Originally posted by redfishsc
<br />CSA claims that a 15/32 drill bit is the proper size bit to drill for the smaller tube of most of their larger pens. They have been ROUND AND ROUND with penturners about this, and they know that most all of us agree that this is too large a hole. My first Gent, a year ago, wound up with a blowout b/c the hole was too big in diameter.


I had been using a 29/64th bit, which is a tight fit but seemingly better than the cavern that the 15/32 drilled.



No more! I was making my first Imperial this past weekend out of Tru-stone turqoise. I used the 29/64th bit as I have done with wood blanks many times, no problems.... but when I pressed the nib coupler into the tube, it split the Trustone. DOH!#$^!#$%@#%%


Is there not a fractional drill bit that I could use?
And why does CSA, which is an otherwise superb company, stick to this 15/32 nonsense? I have drilled several types of wood and acrylic blanks and it is always too large a hole for my comfort.

There isn't anything between the two according to the chart I have (the one from HUT products).

15/32 = .4688 29/64 = .4531

.4688
- .4531
-------
= .0157

That is a pretty big step []

The only alternative I can see is a metric bit somewhere between 11.5 - 12.0

Find yourself a metric conversion chart and order up the proper metric bit off the web. -OR-

Go with the recommended 15/32 and use something like gorilla glue.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by Randy_

According to the information I have, for my Pen Reference Chart, Red, the lower tube of the Gent/Statesman has an OD of 0.45". A 15/32" drill bit should give you a hole that is 0.4688" which is 0.019" oversize. That is actually a very sloppy fit. Most kits for which I have acquired data generally have holes that are oversized by 0.006" to 0.011". Can't begin to guess as to what your problem is; but the recommended bit size is "NOT" the problem!!

Randy, I'm not sure what you are saying. First you seem to agree with me--- a 15/32 IS a sloppy fit. That is my entire complaint, that is what my problem is. That sloppy 15/32" is what CSA recommends, and this is what I don't understand.

Now, if I use a 29/64, the fit is a bit *too* tight but the tube will slide in.




According to some here, there just isn't an in-between.

 

[CaptG]

My solution to the sloppy fit caused by too large of a drill was to use my calipers and measure the o.d. of the tube, then I bought a reamer from "MSC" (they have a large selection of reamers in small incramental jumps, like .001 and .002) that was 008 larger than the tube. Drill the tube just under size and ream to size. This cured the "slop" on my Gents and Statesman pens. Doing a web search for MSC should get you into the catalog.

 

[hilltopper46]

I'm curious as to whether anyone has ever bought an oversize drill bit (for the hole they want to drill) and taken it to a machine shop and had the diameter ground to size. I wouldn't think it would be that expensive... and if you were going to make a lot of that kit you would have exactly what you wanted.

 

[gerryr]

Originally posted by redfishsc
<br />

Originally posted by Randy_

According to the information I have, for my Pen Reference Chart, Red, the lower tube of the Gent/Statesman has an OD of 0.45". A 15/32" drill bit should give you a hole that is 0.4688" which is 0.019" oversize. That is actually a very sloppy fit. Most kits for which I have acquired data generally have holes that are oversized by 0.006" to 0.011". Can't begin to guess as to what your problem is; but the recommended bit size is "NOT" the problem!!

Randy, I'm not sure what you are saying. First you seem to agree with me--- a 15/32 IS a sloppy fit. That is my entire complaint, that is what my problem is. That sloppy 15/32" is what CSA recommends, and this is what I don't understand.

Now, if I use a 29/64, the fit is a bit *too* tight but the tube will slide in.


According to some here, there just isn't an in-between.

Have you actually measured the resulting hole when you use the 15/32" bit? Based on my experience and others also, I'm betting you're getting a hole that is significantly oversize.

And, unless you go to metric drill bits, there is nothing available between 15/32 and 29/64. Fractional drill bits are garduated in 1/64" increments. Letter bits only go to about 0.413", IIRC.