Could Rhodium plating be over rated??

[Marker]

I realize that Rhodium is like the hardness metal know. But considering the cost of rhodium over $1300 per troy oz. and has been as high as $8000 per troy oz. I cant see the plating being very thick on rhodium pens.


How does Rhodium compare to chrome? Chromium is by far cheaper, so wouldn't pens that are plated with chrome have a little thicker plating???


How do you know that the pen kits you buy from china that are supposed to be plated with rhodium are really rhodium????

How do you tell the difference?? I can't. How do you know that some kits that are suposed to be rhodium, are not just some type of chrome, or nickel alloy?

 

[SteveG]

The issues you raise are worthy of consideration, but most here on the forum have experienced good results on components sets described as Rhodium. A significant factor is what we as sellers can SAY about our pens we sell. "Rhodium" has a very high end appeal compared to "Chrome". So it helps the customer justify the expense of a somewhat expensive purchase.

 

[soligen]

Chrome and rhodium has a different hue. Hold both side by side and you should be able to see the difference. To me, Rhodium is a little more "soft" of a color'

 

[76winger]

I think Chrome has a colder "bluish" look to it compared to Rhodium. And as mentioned, it adds to the perceived value of the pen your selling. It's harder to justify, I think on the smaller pens, but any of the rollerballs and fountain pens definitely benefit from it.

Unfortunately, I'm seeing Chrome working it's way into the lower end and mid-range pen models. For example: PSI's Gatsby and Apollo come to mind, and the Rhodium Apollo has been unavailable on their site for several months now (but strangely still in their catalog). And almost all the newer models from them have chrome options, but no rhodium.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

For me and who I sell/give to it isn't really worth it. Not many people ask what kind of plating is on the hardware. On real high end pens I still use it just because. The other question would be is how much rhodium is in rhodium plating?

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

We've beat this horse before and it's all in your venue you sell/give away your pens. If your like Christopher who is giving away most of his pens and really doesn't think it's worth the few bucks more there is nothing wrong but if your selling to support your habit or doing it for profit then no matter how much Rhodium is really used it's the saleability of Rhodium over chrome that becomes the factor that makes it a better plating. When your selling a pen and the customer is on the fence it's the push that at times will make the sale. Remember any $5 Paper mate has chrome plating not rhodium, there is a reason the higher end pens don't plate in chrome but do in Rhodium.

 

[Robert111]

To me, chrome is a little grayer than rhodium. I have found that I sometimes pause and admire rhodium's brightness. And don't forget it's hard and very scratch resistant. If you're selling a pen that may be an heirloom, durability of the finish is important.

 

[chriselle]

I live in a perfect testing environment for all the platings. Middle Japan has GOT TO BE the harshest environment on not only wood but on platings as well. We have bone dust dry winters and brutally hot and humid summers with very little in between. To add to that I live literally 30 feet from the oceans edge and the air corrodes EVERYTHING. I must seal my pen stock in styrofoam boxes to keep the natural elements from getting at them. If I don't they will have pitting and corrosion within 6 months. I can't even use woods unless they are stabilized.

With that as a qualitative measure....rhodium is FAR and AWAY the durability leader. Cheaper chrome and pretty much anything gold...even titanium gold corrodes. Between shows I MUST wrap the metal sections with clear airbrush masking as a preventative measure.

For me....it's Rhodium, black Titanium, Platinum, TiGold......and then chrome in that order. For chrome though it depends on the kit.

 

[terryf]

Sorry Ed but I just had 500 clips plated in Rhodium and the plating company here in the good old USA said that it would take many times the amount of chrome to equal the hardness of Rhodium so when I sell I feel confident that I'm HONEST, NOT UNTRUSTWORTHY OR GIVE HALF TRUTHS, .....

I think this is the difference, knowing that it IS rhodium plated, plated yourself by a reputable company as opposed to say Smitty establishing that his rhodium plated kits were actually white gold plated and NOT rhodium plated as stated by the supplier.

 

[jlord]

All my personal pens have the Rhodium & Black Ti plating's. They hold up very well & look just as good as when they were assembled. The only thing I notice is the clips seem to dull a little after carrying it for awhile while the rest looks untouched. I will say the higher end plating's have helped some justify the higher cost.

 

[Marker]

sorry guys.....I didn't mean to stir anything up. I didn't realize that this had been discussed before.

I just wanted to get some thoughts on this, so I can decided for myself on what type of slimline kits I should order. I have been turning lots of tru-stone, barrels, for slimline pens, as well as some m3 metal blanks. I just wanted to make sure it worth putting tru-stone on chrome, or rhodium slimline kits.

 

[The Penguin]

if anything - I'd say to put them on larger/better kits than slimlines.

:biggrin:

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Mark, you did nothing wrong, you asked a question and I think you received SOME good replies. Like Shawn said unless your selling slims at very high end shows or to people who demand "Jewelry" type pens I would not use Rhodium on slims. Save Rhodium for your roller balls and fountain pens. And yes there is less of a percentage of rhodium used on Rhodium plate than chrome as Rhodium is SO much harder, scratch resistant, and durable that it is not only not needed but a waste of a very expensive commodity.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Who would have thought a thread about metal plating would require a caution?

Adults should be able to discuss plating materials in a civil manner without resorting to character attacks and jabs. I will delete any further caustic comments directed at individuals.

Andrew
assistant moderator

Edit: I've removed the offending comments from the thread, but I haven't closed it - please continue to discuss the plating question!

 

[PenMan1]

The very BEST platings or coatings are those that best satisfy the needs and wants of you and your audience. Anything else is just the age old "Chevy is better than Ford or Ford is better than Chevy" argument.

Choose the platings that best fit your market, and don't worry what the rest of the world thinks.

 

[ed4copies]

Since my original observations were removed because some considered them "personal", I will make no observations.

However, I will redirect you to the thread in July 2011 which did a pretty good analysis, you can find it here:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/wanted-metallurgist-82536/

 

[Gilrock]

Darn it...I want to see what got removed...now how am I gonna have any fun...lol.

BTW...for what it's worth...I had never heard of Rhodium before I started making pens.

 

[IPD_Mr]

There is a huge difference in buying kits produced in God only knows where and having plating done with a known and reputable company. Especially when you have to take the word of the re-seller who is relying on the importer and manufacturer to be forthcoming verses a US company that plates with detailed specs. Having used the same plater as Roy for our plating needs I feel more than confident in the materials being what is claimed. If it was anything but, I seriously doubt that one of the major US pen manufacturers would be using said platers.

 

[alphageek]

There is a huge difference in buying kits produced in God only knows where and having plating done with a known and reputable company. Especially when you have to take the word of the re-seller who is relying on the importer and manufacturer to be forthcoming verses a US company that plates with detailed specs. Having used the same plater as Roy for our plating needs I feel more than confident in the materials being what is claimed. If it was anything but, I seriously doubt that one of the major US pen manufacturers would be using said platers.

Mike,

Not trying to stir the hornets nest but I don't see the difference all that much. The customers still have to trust the makers, who have to trust you a the parts sellers, who have to trust the plater. This is especially true since you keep saying "the plater Roy uses" and "known and reputable", but aren't telling us who. Do you list the plater on your parts you sell? If not, I don't see the distinction you are making?

In the end, there is no real proof to the end consumer either way, just the word of mouth being passed down. It's not like gold where it's stamped and verified relatively easy.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

If the issue is that rhodium is very thin as a plating - that's a fact.

25 tonnes of rhodium is mined in the entire world every year...consider how many pens, rings, and other jewelry that's plated with it, and it's clear that it can't be glopped on there.

It's also very hard, very bright, and very brittle, so it doesn't need to be (nor should it be) very thick.

We're talking microns of depth in plating...the industry standard for plating in rhodium is to do it thinly, to avoid A. a pen costing 80000, and B. a brittle pen costing 800000.

I don't think it's dishonest to say it's rhodium PLATED (just be sure that plated is included), as rhodium plating, by definition, is an alloy...(as is 14 or 18k gold)...

 

[ed4copies]

If the issue is that rhodium is very thin as a plating - that's a fact.

25 tonnes of rhodium is mined in the entire world every year...consider how many pens, rings, and other jewelry that's plated with it, and it's clear that it can't be glopped on there.

It's also very hard, very bright, and very brittle, so it doesn't need to be (nor should it be) very thick.

We're talking microns of depth in plating...the industry standard for plating in rhodium is to do it thinly, to avoid A. a pen costing 80000, and B. a brittle pen costing 800000.

I don't think it's dishonest to say it's rhodium PLATED (just be sure that plated is included), as rhodium plating, by definition, is an alloy...(as is 14 or 18k gold)...

Thanks to the internet, we can "fact check". "Industry standards" are set either by government agencies or Industry Associations. So, Where did you find this "industry standard"?

Like people who say, "I read" or "an authoritative source", it is helpful to ascertain the level of expertise of your source.

So, who says .5 of one percent of rhodium is "standard"?

 

[ed4copies]

While I don't pretend to fully understand it, we have located this link:

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:

Par 23.7-(3) seems to define "platinum" as at least 50% (100 times what our samples tested) as the requirement.

Again, I don't fully understand plating, so I would love to have an interpretation by someone who possesses real knowledge---Terry is one such person, maybe we have others who are new members.??? How do the "experts" read this??

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Dean, I see no reason to divulge our platers it has no benefit to either of us , but just as said by Andrew it meets industry standards. There is absolutely no reason to exceed industry standards world wide as Rhodium the standard coating is still much harder than Chrome . If the argument is that Rhodium has much less product in its plating than I think we all agree, as it doesn't need to be, to be harder and more scratch resistant, but thats not the question the question was is it over rated and the answer given by most is no. BTW vendors have every right not to divulge suppliers, I would not ask another vendor to tell me where, how much and MOQ of a product he sells and I will not tell another vendor no more n KFC will tell Church's

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Thanks to the internet, we can "fact check". "Industry standards" are set either by government agencies or Industry Associations. So, Where did you find this "industry standard"?

Like people who say, "I read" or "an authoritative source", it is helpful to ascertain the level of expertise of your source.

So, who says .5 of one percent of rhodium is "standard"?

This was an interesting read found via google a while back :
[Ganoksin] Jewelry Making - Second skin - Testing Rhodium Plating Technique

It discusses the process for plating with rhodium to a depth of 5 microinches, which is about 0.125 microns. They then plate a ring with rhodium to a depth of 26 microinches (about .5 or so microns)

Again, just fyi, and an interesting read.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

Sorry for this double post but I just read an e-mail with a few details about Rhodium Plating from the co-owner and chemist of the company we get our clips from. I Don't fully understand but she said that Rhodium is used 100% and when the part is vated and the plating covers the product you could leave the product in the vat for a month and the plating would not get any thicker. It is a 1/2 micron and that is all. But with silver or gold the longer in the vat the thicker the plate. I will call her myself if I get time tomorrow while setting up for a show, if not I'll call her on Monday, as I need to send more clips to be plated. As said by Laugh-Ins Arte Johnson...VERY INTRESTING!!

 

[ed4copies]

So, Andrew's research comes to a site that says:
Many manufacturers and bench jewelers today are plating rhodium for 15 seconds, producing a very thin deposit that will eventually wear off. The data collected in this article shows that a longer immersion period, coupled with the proper voltage and temperature, can result in a more durable, brighter, and whiter second skin.

And
Thickness readings were 15 microinches (one millionth of an inch)=.381 microns at 0.4 ASI, 12 microinches at 0.2 ASI, and 7 microinches at 0.1 ASI.

This appears to be an "industry journal" and the purpose is "plating at your shop".

Yet,
Roy's authority states: you could leave the product in the vat for a month and the plating would not get any thicker. It is a 1/2 micron (one-half of a millionth of a meter which is about 42 inches) =about 20 microinches and that is all.

So they appear to be consistent.

Now, what does all that mean in relation to the .5% on a pen kit?

I don't believe anyone asked about what we COULD get with rhodium, but rather the questions were:

How does Rhodium compare to chrome? Chromium is by far cheaper, so wouldn't pens that are plated with chrome have a little thicker plating???


How do you know that the pen kits you buy from china that are supposed to be plated with rhodium are really rhodium????

How do you tell the difference?? I can't. How do you know that some kits that are supposed to be rhodium, are not just some type of chrome, or nickel alloy?


parts in blue I added to try to make it more understandable.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

rhodium does appear whiter than chrome if you compare side-by-side - which makes sense, as it's used as a substitute for 'white gold' in jewelry.

So if it's similar in looks, but costs more, what's the advantage? It's perceived to be more prestigious, as it's worth thousands of times more than chromium...

So that being said, I think the value of chrome would be that it's cheaper and shiny, and rhodium is hard, prestigious, and shiny. There's a reason they don't advertise diamond rings with 'durable chromium setting' instead of platinum, rhodium, or white gold settings.

Just a qualitative observation. Personally, I tend to buy pen kits made of chrome just for the cost issue...

 

[SCR0LL3R]

Now, what does all that mean in relation to the .5% on a pen kit?

When they measured that .5% rhodium from a kit, did they only scrape the several microinches of the outermost plating? What exactly were they measuring?... the outermost plating along with other layers of whatever is underneath the rhodium?

 

[ed4copies]

Now, what does all that mean in relation to the .5% on a pen kit?

When they measured that .5% rhodium from a kit, did they only scrape the several microinches of the outermost plating? What exactly were they measuring?... the outermost plating along with other layers of whatever is underneath the rhodium?

The answer is found here: (this will open the correct entry in this long thread)
http://www.penturners.org/forum/1252788-post52.html

This way it is NOT my interpretation, it is Terry's analysis.

(If you have not used this type of link before, you can go to the upper right corner and click on the name of the thread, it will open the rest of the thread so you can continue to read, to put the information in context)

 

[jeweler53]

Good Lord almighty! This sounds like a playground squabble! If you want to accurately describe the components used in a a pen the very first first term you should use is "brass". You can say copper plated, gold plated, titanium plated, Rhodium plated or whatever you want , but if you want to talk about the metal you are selling it is BRASS.

People here are using jewelery terms to market pens. Fine. It is not jewelery, it is a pen. You can talk about all the market standards you want, but if you are selling brass (and you and I are doing exactly that), you need to say so.

sorry, just get a grip OK?

 

[alphageek]

Dean, I see no reason to divulge our platers it has no benefit to either of us , but just as said by Andrew it meets industry standards. There is absolutely no reason to exceed industry standards world wide as Rhodium the standard coating is still much harder than Chrome . If the argument is that Rhodium has much less product in its plating than I think we all agree, as it doesn't need to be, to be harder and more scratch resistant, but thats not the question the question was is it over rated and the answer given by most is no. BTW vendors have every right not to divulge suppliers, I would not ask another vendor to tell me where, how much and MOQ of a product he sells and I will not tell another vendor no more n KFC will tell Church's

Roy,

I was not saying that you need to divulge your plater. My point was in relation to the comments about rhodium in this thread. What I was pointing out that Mike was claiming that it was better by having a "known and reputable" plater vs one from "God knows where" and was pointing out that our customers have no direct proof of that and as buyers of parts, neither do we. It comes down to either a) trust or b) proof. And since proof is difficult in this case I was pointing out that it still comes down to trust and in that even though Mike was saying "reputable" - to us and more importantly to our customers it still is from "God knows where" since we can't prove it.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

I'm not going to argue thickness,thin-ness as it's a mute point, I only know that most if not all the component sets I sell all come from the same supplier and here is their guarantee:


Wear Rating:

• Possibly nature's most brilliant and durable precious metal, Rhodium is used by the worlds premier pen manufacturers to plate their very finest pens. A member of the Platinum precious metals family, Rhodium sells for as much as $1,500.00 per troy ounce and is unmatched in brilliance and durability. We guarantee the Rhodium plating on our Platinum series pens to last a lifetime or your money back.

Notice lifetime or money back

• here is what is said from one of the suppliers that doesn't use Rhoudim on their Chrome and Platinum:
• Chrome
  
  This is an extremely durable plating. Under normal use this plating should hold up for many years.
• Notice the word SHOULD!
  Platinum
  
  This is a very durable hard plating. We use real platinum rather then rhodium and it should be expected to hold up under normal careful use for many years.
• ONCE MORE THE WORDING "SHOULD"

 

[alphageek]

My thoughts on the OPs original questions are mixed in Red below:

I realize that Rhodium is like the hardness metal know. But considering the cost of rhodium over $1300 per troy oz. and has been as high as $8000 per troy oz. I cant see the plating being very thick on rhodium pens.

And most of the info in this thread does seem to tie out with what one USA plater says:
Rhodium Plating / Rodium Plating - Proplate

is that a "typical" plating thickness is 20-30 micro inches. Not too far off from the tested stuff in the other thread and from Andrews link - and yes, not very thick overall... but par for most jewelry from what it seems.

How does Rhodium compare to chrome? Chromium is by far cheaper, so wouldn't pens that are plated with chrome have a little thicker plating???

Don't know if chrome would be "thicker", but no matter what I don't think any of the actual top plating is very thick - it may be possible that the chrome is thinner. In most info I've found, things that are listed as chrome plate is a thicker nickel plate with a thin chrome on top of the nickel.

How do you know that the pen kits you buy from china that are supposed to be plated with rhodium are really rhodium????

This takes either trust or testing. Most of us have to use trust as testing is outside our budgets.

How do you tell the difference?? I can't. How do you know that some kits that are suposed to be rhodium, are not just some type of chrome, or nickel alloy?

Again... Most of us can't. And your original question - could it be over-rated.... The answer is IT DEPENDS. If you can prove or trust your supplier, and the extra cost of the rhodium over chrome gives you an advantage for what you do, and you have customers that care... Then is probably NOT overrated. If you have a chrome side by side with a rhodium and your customer/buyer/family/friend picks one over the other based on the REST of the pen, not the plating - then yep its probably overrated.

 

[The Penguin]

rhodium does appear whiter than chrome if you compare side-by-side - which makes sense, as it's used as a substitute for 'white gold' in jewelry.

So if it's similar in looks, but costs more, what's the advantage? It's perceived to be more prestigious, as it's worth thousands of times more than chromium...

So that being said, I think the value of chrome would be that it's cheaper and shiny, and rhodium is hard, prestigious, and shiny. There's a reason they don't advertise diamond rings with 'durable chromium setting' instead of platinum, rhodium, or white gold settings.

Just a qualitative observation. Personally, I tend to buy pen kits made of chrome just for the cost issue...

not sure what you mean there - white gold is not really white and is plated with rhodium. The rhodium wears off and the jewelry has to be replated every 3 years or so.

at least - that's my understanding - and both my wife and I have white gold wedding rings.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

Good analysis Dean!

 

[alphageek]

I'm not going to argue thickness,thin-ness as it's a mute point, I only know that most if not all the component sets I sell all come from the same supplier and here is their guarantee:

<clipped>

Interesting points about guarantee.... However, Unless I'm wrong that text comes from here (and if it doesn't someone is copying word for word):

Pens and Platings 101 - Woodturners Catalog - Woodworking tools and supplies specializing in woodturning.

From the same page, Chrome get 4 stars and says this:

"Chrome is an extremely long wearing plating capable of resisting everyday wear and tear. Highly recommended for key rings, pens and other projects, chrome gives you a shiney, rich look at an economy price."

That page is a GREAT overview of platings for a pen maker IMO. Not to derail the "is Rhodium worth it", but that is a PERSONAL question that each pen maker answers based on their criteria. Look at that page - platings range from 1.5 stars to 5. That supplier sells components at each of those levels. Personally I try to stick to the top couple of items. Not all components are even available in Chrome. For example I love the Zen, which is available in 5 start black ti, 4 star chrome and 3 star 10k gold. I tend to make most in black ti, but would do chrome if asked. Thats one component that I won't sell in gold, since gold ti isn't an option.

 

[Smitty37]

I live in a perfect testing environment for all the platings. Middle Japan has GOT TO BE the harshest environment on not only wood but on platings as well. We have bone dust dry winters and brutally hot and humid summers with very little in between. To add to that I live literally 30 feet from the oceans edge and the air corrodes EVERYTHING. I must seal my pen stock in styrofoam boxes to keep the natural elements from getting at them. If I don't they will have pitting and corrosion within 6 months. I can't even use woods unless they are stabilized.

With that as a qualitative measure....rhodium is FAR and AWAY the durability leader. Cheaper chrome and pretty much anything gold...even titanium gold corrodes. Between shows I MUST wrap the metal sections with clear airbrush masking as a preventative measure.

For me....it's Rhodium, black Titanium, Platinum, TiGold......and then chrome in that order. For chrome though it depends on the kit.

Titanium gold is usually just titanium, it is highly resistant to corrosion but will corrode inder some conditions.

Someone mentioned the thinness of Rhodium plating....this is from a company that does electro plating....Thickeness of the deposit should be minimized. Electroplated rhodium deposits tend to develop a highly fractured, very dense crystal structure. This high fracture crystal structure contributes directly to the wear hardness and durability of the rhodium surface. However, as the thickness of the deposit increases the possibility of the electrodeposit fracturing and delaminating from the substrate increases. Standard good manufacturing practice for rhodium plating requires that the rhodium bath be kept absolutely free of impurities and continuously monitored for the correct amount of organic stress reduction compounds. When properly maintained, a rhodium electrodeposit of up to 100 micro inches (2.5 micros, 0.000100 inches) is regularly attained.
A typical rhodium thickness would be 20 -30 micro inches. Please call us regarding your specific requirement.

I think we've all wondered about that...well there is the answer.

 

[Smitty37]

rhodium does appear whiter than chrome if you compare side-by-side - which makes sense, as it's used as a substitute for 'white gold' in jewelry.

So if it's similar in looks, but costs more, what's the advantage? It's perceived to be more prestigious, as it's worth thousands of times more than chromium...

So that being said, I think the value of chrome would be that it's cheaper and shiny, and rhodium is hard, prestigious, and shiny. There's a reason they don't advertise diamond rings with 'durable chromium setting' instead of platinum, rhodium, or white gold settings.

Just a qualitative observation. Personally, I tend to buy pen kits made of chrome just for the cost issue...

not sure what you mean there - white gold is not really white and is plated with rhodium. The rhodium wears off and the jewelry has to be replated every 3 years or so.

at least - that's my understanding - and both my wife and I have white gold wedding rings.

When applied to white gold the rhodium is used to "cover" the yellow tinge (Gold is yellow) -- it is often flash plated so thin that it wears very quickly partivularily on rings which kind of take a beating.

 

[jlord]

Good Lord almighty! This sounds like a playground squabble! If you want to accurately describe the components used in a a pen the very first first term you should use is "brass". You can say copper plated, gold plated, titanium plated, Rhodium plated or whatever you want , but if you want to talk about the metal you are selling it is BRASS.

People here are using jewelery terms to market pens. Fine. It is not jewelery, it is a pen. You can talk about all the market standards you want, but if you are selling brass (and you and I are doing exactly that), you need to say so.

sorry, just get a grip OK?

Unfortunately it's not the brass the customer see's.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

When properly maintained, a rhodium electrodeposit of up to 100 micro inches (2.5 micros, 0.000100 inches) is regularly attained.
A typical rhodium thickness would be 20 -30 micro inches....

This is what I was thinking when I was asking Ed about the ~0.5% rhodium content results from the test. How is the person doing the metal testing able to scrape off only .0001 inches (or possibly less) to measure the percentage of rhodium therein?