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Old 07-01-2014, 10:53 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Hasn't it been said that imitating or emulating are the highest forms of flattery?
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:00 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Lets close down the library and all post in the forum on "how to"
If we dont we run the risk that these things may be copied by someone.
Bidine Crafts.
It all starts with a simple idea.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
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First, let me say that I'm sorry that I read that rant. She's butt hurt because random people are 'copying' her for their own use rather than buying her stuff. Somebody call her a Waambulance.

She's also wrong on the law, in my opinion. As I understand it, there is no law against a person painting a copy of another painting for their own enjoyment.

Related to Ed's apparent point in creating this thread, I differ with his opinion. I see nothing wrong with someone posting a picture of a pen and someone else creating one like it. Further, I see nothing wrong with a person making their own blanks rather than paying an inflated price for similar ones.
Franklin, TN

Though we travel the world over to find the beautiful, we must carry it with us or we find it not. -Emerson
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:19 AM   #14 (permalink)
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IMO, sometimes we artists/craftsmen give ourselves a bit more credit than we deserve. To paraphrase a term used in the patent world, most of our ideas are "obvious extensions of the art". A good example is something like the stamp blanks people are making. It was a clever idea to stick stamps on a tube, but it is an extension of the the basic art of sticking objects to a tube, be it snake skin, feathers, chyogami paper, maps etc., then casting the tube. No real innovation. Where the seperation comes in is in the artistic sense you have in choosing the stamps and fitting them around the tube to best show them off. Then there are the skill of the learned mechanics of doing a crystal clear, bubble free casting.

Most of the people in the different turning/pen/woodworking groups that I belong to seem to understand this because they are more than happy to tell you exactly how to do a particular technique as far as the mechanics.

With all respect to Ms. Berman, I think her article is pleading for a level of protection that is not really due. Her rail against "Fair use" is proof of that. To put it simply, if I can easily duplicate your work from a quick glance at your booth or an online picture, maybe it is not all that innovative after all.
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:53 AM   #15 (permalink)
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My opinion, is that the ones worried about someone else copying their work are the people directly involved in craft show or art show circuits, mainly because the are afraid that other turners/whatever craft maker, at the same shows may be selling the exact same products but at a lower price, bringing the value or their wares down. One person comes to mind, Andy, that apparantley left us recently. He never shows any pens, even if you look for them, you will only find a few that he has ever posted on IAP, but yet he was revered as an making amazing pen maker, but got questioned all the time about his credentials because he talked a lot, but never showed anything. He never showed them becasue he was active in the circuit and didnt want other turners too copy him and show up at the same show as him with the same products. I dont do craft shows and am not worried about anyone copying me. Thats why i freely show my work here. Even if i were to do PEN shows, i wouldnt be worried. Almost everything has been done before, and i am confident in the beauty of my product that i care not if the guy next to me has a similar product at a lower price. My product will sell itself. Sure full on copying is one thing, but without my product in their hand, they cant copy it exactly, it will only look similar. I say copy away, see if you can make it better than me. If you can, i applaud you. If you cant, i applaud you for trying. Copying really is flattery to me. Someone liked my stuff so much, that it inspired them to make something similar. I inspired them to try something different that they possibly never would have tried before. Ill take that anyday. Im here to help the penmaking community, no stifle it with "these are my designs and no one can make one similar, so im not going to show my work, and if i do, im going to get my feathers ruffled if someone makes something similar". I say copy on penturners. This is a craft, and we are all part of it. We are all here to learn to make better pens. Thats what IAP is for. Not to argue over i made that first, or that looks to much like mine. Thats why we have a library with hundreds of articles detailing how to "Make it Like Me" persay. I will be the first to say, "I encourage all of you to copy me freely". If you can make it better than me, or have a better/easier method, lets talk about it. Im here to learn too!! Copy on!!
Justin Short

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Old 07-01-2014, 12:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Although it can be frustrating at times for people that sell their products, copying is just a fact of life for businesses small and large, which is why you need to be constantly evolving as an artist to keep your products ahead of the copy-cats.
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Old 07-01-2014, 12:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I only have a problem with the article in that there really is nothing new under the sun. The jewlery pieces in the article are nice but I have found the same pieces in Egyptology books dating back to Ancient Egypt. So did these artist in 2012 Copycat. Many things we turn have also been turned before and forgotton or were ahead of there time and proved to not have a market so were lost for awhile.

I do admit there are some very neat things on this site and I do try to give credit if I copy a pen. There is also new technology that gives way to new ideas which crafters capalize on.

I guess I figure if I "create" something incredible no one else will do it perfectly because it takes a lot of time and practice and mistakes even with a tutorial. It would be like me copying Sheamus (sp?) quarters I could come perhaps close after destroying 10's of dollars worth of quarters but they probably will never look as clean and crisp as his. Yet doing cut outs of coins is nothing new we were doing this in the 70's with the last of the silver coins to make jewlery and using a hand copeing saws. I have found in books neck wear that was done with roman coins back when the emporers were in power and it was against their laws to ruin a coin with the reigning persons pic on it. This is not to pick on Sheamus his stuff is outstanding and beautiful as we all know. But something similar was done decades ago to make pendants and ring. So what exactly constitutes a new idea???

I think as long as you give credit where credit is due, that is the important thing and that you do not try to sell it under the name of the current Professional. Just my 2cents worth. Not trying to cause a fight just one relative newbys view.
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Old 07-01-2014, 12:45 PM   #18 (permalink)
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She copycatted the name for her Op Ed...just sayin

I don't believe it is possible to not copy. Not in pen making, not in arts/crafts, not in life.

I do believe creativity is a beautiful thing, I try to be creative in what I do. I haven't come up with any new ideas with pens. I did do something that I thought was so it was at least a creative and new me.

Ed, I think you are just pushing for more creativity which I agree with. At the same time there's going to be some copying. The more creative we all can be though the more it gives others new ideas to copy Myself included
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Old 07-01-2014, 01:28 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Think of it like this. If you make a pen barrel using a nice burl wood blank (somebody had to be first to use wood for the barrel) you are copying...if you make a pen barrel with an acrylic regardless of the color or pattern, you are copying. The center of the debate then seems to be what is ok to copy and what is not ok. PSI got a US patent on one of their kits, and claim trade mark on some others. Outside the USA their patent isn't worth the ink it took to print it several makers have offered them to me for less than PSI charges but I respect the patent. Berea tried (unsuccessfully I'd guess) to claim trade mark rights on the Sierra name. But that would not have meant the kit couldn't be copied only that we'd have to name it something else - which a lot of us did anyway.

Most pen blanks could not be patented, they just don't issue patents for 5-6 inch long pieces of material. Even if the material itself could be patented (and probably some of them are) the pen blanks made from it could not.

The name for a particular pen blank might be trade marked but that does not keep anyone from copying anything but the name. The blank could be copied - we see that on here even for some tools, they are not patented and we see the same tool show up with a different name, because the name might be trade marked.

The short answer is - if you come up with something good it will be copied. The matter is not if it will happen, it is simply when it will happen.
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Old 07-01-2014, 01:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
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There was a great show on "Ted Talk" on NPR this past weekend, "What is Original?" I didn't catch the whole show, but when I have a bit of time, I intend to go back and listen:

What Is Original? : TED Radio Hour : NPR

The lines are very blurred. Many, many, many (most, in fact) inventions, works of art, songs, literature, etc. "borrow" heavily from those that went before us. There have been very few genuinely "eureka" totally new ideas or works created.

That said, there are limits to how much copying is too much.

I assume that if a pen turner posts a detailed "how to" article in the library, the design is fair game. That said, I still try to put my own twist on them all to add a little uniqueness.

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