Competition

[Smitty37]

The "Why so cheap" thread got me to thinking about the competition for pen makers. If you plan on turning pens and selling them to make a living...don't quit your day job just yet. There is a ton of competition out there and it is not an easy field to break into.

The first thing you have to get straight is what segment of the market are you going to try to get into...and there are a lot of segments. Your turning skills and imagination and eye for detail might help you decide but don't think that because you are "good" sales will be easy. There are a lot of guys right here in the IAP that are REAL good.

The "low to moderate" market is super crowded, full of people who have no intention of making a living selling pens. Mostly they are hobbiests who turn for fun and don't really try to make money, but they do sell some pens. I fall into that catagory myself, I have pens listed in my store but rarely sell one. Mostly I sell by word of mouth to a few locals and now and then my daughter (a school principal) buys a few to use as gifts for her employees. Never-the-less, some of my sales would be considered as coming in the open market. Forget eBay listing and final value fees will kill you, if you list enough of your work to get noticed you won't sell enough to pay the fees.

The mid-range and high-end markets have less competitors but also less
buyers. Let no one ever tell you that there is a big market for $50+pens. There is a solid market but some very good competitors...at the high end you also have folks like Mont Blanc and Pelikan around for a long time and with very good reputations. It probably takes some good marketing to convinve someone that your $250 pen is a better buy than theirs.

Don't hesitate to go into turning and selling pens, but go into it with your eyes open. It takes more than a real nice pen, to put money in your pocket.

 

[bitshird]

Smitty I have a brick and Mortar shop, with about 40 Sq. Feet dedicated to pen sales, we do average of 5 shows a year, one is the TACA (Tennessee Association of Craft Artists) shows which is supposed to be one of the top 200 shows in the United states, it's twice a year in Nashville, And almost impossible to get into, I get lucky because I'm booth Coordinator so I get space in the Associations booth , otherwise it's 400.00 a booth I average about 1200.00 a show, which almost covers expenses, We do a big show in Jackson that last year was outstanding since I could drive home each night, did around 1800.00 in three days and it's 200 a booth and then one more over near Shilo state park, that is average 1500 per show. but it's only 75.00 a booth.
If it were just pens and shows, I'd be sharing the Purina one with my Shepherds.
I've sold I think 6 pens and a couple of bowls out of the shop, I'd guess my total sales from pens including web site and Etsy and shows is about 7000.00 a year, maybe 8000.00 but I've given away 30 or 40 nice pens, Retros and Gent's and such, I'm glad I don't have to depend on pen sales for a living.
But there are guys like Anthony Turchetta that do make their living doing it, but they do a huge amount of work and PR (public relations) not casting. would I like to have their show schedule or their investment NO I'm kind of waiting for my SIL to step up and start handling more of the business so I can play with pens and maybe start doing casting and Jewelry again.

 

[its_virgil]

Anthony,
Better get busy to keep up your image!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Do a good turn daily!
Don

But there are guys like Anthony Turchetta that do make their living doing it, but they do a huge amount of work ...

 

[Mark]

If it were just pens and shows, I'd be sharing the Purina one with my Shepherds.

That's too funny.

Smitty, thanks for the post.

I'm a hobbyist, by today's standards. I don't feel I have any competition, because I'm not making a living selling pens.

To me, I sell custom works of art. I do the very best I can possibly do on each and every pen I sell or give to anyone. I keep 5 - 7 ($5) pens with me all the time. It's a slim, wrapped in some kind of wood or corian. I give them to people I meet. My dentist, my doctor, the MRI tech., anyone I think has a network of friends that may one day need a pen. They all get a business card too. The way I figure it, my day job pays for the hobby.

Someday, I'll retire. By then I will hopefully have developed the skills to be a High End competitor. Then I can make money....

 

[Smitty37]

I understand

Smitty I have a brick and Mortar shop, with about 40 Sq. Feet dedicated to pen sales, we do average of 5 shows a year, one is the TACA (Tennessee Association of Craft Artists) shows which is supposed to be one of the top 200 shows in the United states, it's twice a year in Nashville, And almost impossible to get into, I get lucky because I'm booth Coordinator so I get space in the Associations booth , otherwise it's 400.00 a booth I average about 1200.00 a show, which almost covers expenses, We do a big show in Jackson that last year was outstanding since I could drive home each night, did around 1800.00 in three days and it's 200 a booth and then one more over near Shilo state park, that is average 1500 per show. but it's only 75.00 a booth.
If it were just pens and shows, I'd be sharing the Purina one with my Shepherds.
I've sold I think 6 pens and a couple of bowls out of the shop, I'd guess my total sales from pens including web site and Etsy and shows is about 7000.00 a year, maybe 8000.00 but I've given away 30 or 40 nice pens, Retros and Gent's and such, I'm glad I don't have to depend on pen sales for a living.
But there are guys like Anthony Turchetta that do make their living doing it, but they do a huge amount of work and PR (public relations) not casting. would I like to have their show schedule or their investment NO I'm kind of waiting for my SIL to step up and start handling more of the business so I can play with pens and maybe start doing casting and Jewelry again.

That's kind of what I was saying...it is darned hard to make a living doing pens....you put a lot of work into making that $8000 and deserve every penny of it, but that will only get you the right to work even harder next year. The only saving grace (which could disappear given the Chinese are now furnishing finished wooden pens) is that you can't find them in the Big Box stores like Wal-Mart and Target.

 

[intillzah]

I'm at the point that if I can make enough to cover my operating expenses (supplies, utilities,etc, and my expenses are minimal) That makes me happy, if the hobby starts to stress me out. I just walk away, for me that's not where I want this to be now.

And as for the competition around here, I've found a couple of people here who turn pens, but they mostly give them away. So my market here is kinda untapped.

But I'm working on it.....

 

[mredburn]

Smitty I bought a pen/set of wooden pens made in china from walmart back around 2000. $4.95 for the set with the wood box. Our Edison home gift shop has them for sale at $19.99 with your name laser engraved on them. Kinda like the little license plates, A whole turning display with pre-lasered pens.

 

[ed4copies]

There once was a man from two states over (to keep it non-specific) who came to the largest show in Chicago, first week in December.

I did this show for over 10 years. This exhibitor paid the entry fee and had lights, so his overhead for the show was $750ish. The hotel in Chicago is about $100 a night and the food is $5-10 for a "hotdog" at the show. So, for the Thursday-Sunday show, it cost him a minimum of $1300.

Sold Emperor pens, in reasonably nice woods at $85 a piece. Cost him about $35 for the kit, say $5 for the blank. "Profit" $45 a pop!!!! Only needed to sell seven a day to make his expenses.

Meanwhile, 5 rows over (there are 20 aisles), I was selling the emperor (in acrylics), starting at $295. Also selling cigars at $38, and Jr. Gents in the $70 ballpark.

Yes, I sold Emperors that year. Not a lot, but I never expect to sell a lot. Sold quite a few Jr. Gents, and tons of Cigars and "comfort" pens--suitable for the $30-50 gift.

We were back the next year, he wasn't.

Several rows over, for the last five years we did the show, there was a guy selling the two "european" pen set, in the wood box (all padauk) for $10. But it was a "flea market" table with all kinds of odds and ends, so I never considered him competition---he satisfied the "junk" market--I appealed to the "Nice gift" giver.

But, it is true that the "emperor guy" and I were selling the same components at very different "price points". My customers bought "high end, hand crafted gifts". I don't know who he sold to--never cared--not a market I wanted to enter.

So, no, the product doesn't make the sale--- the pricepoint doesn't make the sale---the "value proposition" makes the prospect into a customer.

Learn that and you will learn to overcome the old horsecrap: "Well you have to sell that cheap or it won't sell!!"

Milwaukee sells their poop (Milorganite) and the rest of the country BUYS it----THAT's marketing!!!

 

[witz1976]

That's too funny.

Smitty, thanks for the post.

I'm a hobbyist, by today's standards. I don't feel I have any competition, because I'm not making a living selling pens.

To me, I sell custom works of art. I do the very best I can possibly do on each and every pen I sell or give to anyone. I keep 5 - 7 ($5) pens with me all the time. It's a slim, wrapped in some kind of wood or corian. I give them to people I meet. My dentist, my doctor, the MRI tech., anyone I think has a network of friends that may one day need a pen. They all get a business card too. The way I figure it, my day job pays for the hobby.

Someday, I'll retire. By then I will hopefully have developed the skills to be a High End competitor. Then I can make money....

Why do you consider a slimline in corian or wood a $5 pen? I have all of mine at $25 and they sell great! My slim sets (pen/pencil) I sell for $45 (perceived value) I am still making a nice profit off these. I am just curious. I get that this is a hobby for you. Heck it is a hobby for me as well, however I am making damn sure my hobby is not costing me a thing (figure in power, heat/ac, glues, sanding papers etc).

Ed brings up great points, as does Smitty, however salesmanship is what makes a $80 go to a $200 pen. Convincing the customer how special this pen is, how much they want it. True it is very tough to make a living, but no reason to turn down a nice suppliment to your income:biggrin:

 

[All Thumbs]

I sell on Ebay,Esty and in three retail shops. The pens I sell on Ebay are the pens that are nice but don't have the wow factor. My average price is $14.95 for a $5.00 cost pen. I sell about ten a month. This gives me enough money to buy the high end pens to sell at the retail shops for $150.00-$200.00. I sell about 20-25 a year. If I relied on the high end only I would only be making two pens a month instead of fifteen to twenty. I say don't worry about Ebay it's a totaly different market.

 

[dhammis]

I'm very new at all of this so I'm still trying to establish my price points and value of my time and parts, etc. I really enjoy making pens as I've never been really creative in my life before and it's a bit of stress relief for me too. My goal is to sell enough to cover the costs of equipment and parts to keep the wife from complaining that the hobby is costing more than the mortgage. If the parts and equipment were all free I'd be happy to give them away, but it's not, so I don't.

 

[phillywood]

Anthony,
Better get busy to keep up your image!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Virgile who is exactly Anthony?

 

[Smitty37]

No Position

I hope that no one got the impression that I was advocating any particular market over any other. I wasn't. I was intending only to point out that you will have plenty of competition whatever market you enter.

Most of you know, I sell low priced pen kits. Would you like to know why?
Well it's because Wal-Mart does not. The thought....don't compete with the guys you can't beat.

 

[fernhills]

Tell me, where oh where, is the competition lean ?, in anything one might choose to do. Working on that premise, one may choose to jump off a cliff to avoid competition. Carl

 

[jttheclockman]

Sometimes I can not figure why I am compelled to reply to posts like this but here I am again. :biggrin:

If you are asking the age old question can a living be made at making and selling pens then the obvious answer is sure why not. Is it for everyone then the obvious answer is no. It will take a great deal amount of work to do this and also alot of luck. Sometimes being in the right place at the right time is the telling factor.

Competion!!!!!!!!!!!!! heck you get that in every aspect of life let alone what spectrum of the field of selling pens or making pens you want to pursue. This question gets asked a million times in the scrollsaw world as well. There are people who do portraits, some do intarsia, some do other type fret work and again the answer is the same. If the time and effort is put into it, anything is possible. People turn bowls and platters and other such things and the same applys. Weather something is made by hand or not is not relevant when it comes to sales. You can use this as a selling point if you choose but your client may not see it that way. So who are we competeing against and my answer to that is ourselves and yourself. You are always competing against yourself and that is what will drive you to the next level or become content with where you are. Competing to me is a sports word. Competeing for sales then you turned it into a sport.

All I can say is good luck to everyone who tries selling their wares in whatever stage of your hobby is and always remember don't sell yourself short. Strive for bigger and better results. My 2¢

 

[bitshird]

Virgile who is exactly Anthony?

Phillip Anthony is http://www.penworks.us/ and also operates http://www.thegoldennib.com/
An excellent source for pen related supplies and shaving set materials

 

[Smitty37]

Sometimes I can not figure why I am compelled to reply to posts like this but here I am again. :biggrin: I've been wondering about that too.:tongue:

If you are asking the age old question can a living be made at making and selling pens then the obvious answer is sure why not. I was not asking that question. Is it for everyone then the obvious answer is no. I was not asking that question either. It will take a great deal amount of work to do this and also alot of luck. Sometimes being in the right place at the right time is the telling factor.

Competion!!!!!!!!!!!!! heck you get that in every aspect of life let alone what spectrum of the field of selling pens or making pens you want to pursue. This question gets asked a million times in the scrollsaw world as well. There are people who do portraits, some do intarsia, some do other type fret work and again the answer is the same. If the time and effort is put into it, anything is possible. People turn bowls and platters and other such things and the same applys. Weather (would that be sunny or rainy weather...sorry couldn't resist):biggrin: something is made by hand or not is not relevant when it comes to sales. You can use this as a selling point if you choose but your client may not see it that way. So who are we competeing against and my answer to that is ourselves and yourself. Like it or not, if you are selling something you are competing against everyone selling the same thing (or even a different thing that serves the same purpose) in the same venue. You are always competing against yourself and that is what will drive you to the next level or become content with where you are. Competing to me is a sports word. Competeing for sales then you turned it into a sport. That's why Bud introduces their new commercials at the super bowl...competition for the best ad.

All I can say is good luck to everyone who tries selling their wares in whatever stage of your hobby is and always remember don't sell yourself short. Strive for bigger and better results.This is a good point and sound advise. [/quote]

The point of the thread is simply that there is a lot of competition selling pens, whatever the venue. It is telling folks that they should not expect to find it easy.

 

[Smitty37]

No cliff jumper

Tell me, where oh where, is the competition lean ?, in anything one might choose to do. Working on that premise, one may choose to jump off a cliff to avoid competition. Carl

You may choose to jump off a cliff to avoid competition---I sure won't---I'm close enough to turning up my toes and assuming the horizontal without that.

The point is "pick your battles" and don't fight the ones your going to lose. I'm not going to try to compete with David Broadwell for the $1500 pen market. No way to win.

 

[Smitty37]

company

I'm very new at all of this so I'm still trying to establish my price points and value of my time and parts, etc. I really enjoy making pens as I've never been really creative in my life before and it's a bit of stress relief for me too. My goal is to sell enough to cover the costs of equipment and parts to keep the wife from complaining that the hobby is costing more than the mortgage. If the parts and equipment were all free I'd be happy to give them away, but it's not, so I don't.

Well one thing's for sure, you don't have to feel lonesome, you have plenty of company. Probably about half the people selling pens feel the same way you do and are selling pens for the same reason.:wink:

 

[jttheclockman]

"The point of the thread is simply that there is a lot of competition selling pens, whatever the venue. It is telling folks that they should not expect to find it easy. "


That was your whole point of the thread. Very profound of you sir.