Cocobolo replacement

[jennera]

My daughter has been enjoying turning cocobolo and the beautiful grain and variances in color but it appears she is allergic to it. She is having some sinus problems today with runny nose, head congestion, and tightness in her throat after turning 2 pens this weekend.

My question is are there any woods similar to cocobolo that would be safer for her to turn? Until she woke up sick this morning she was planning to buy some more cocobolo but I would like to find a substitute for her to try.

She has been turning pens for about 2 months now.

Thanks!
Jennifer

 

[farmer]

Breathing

My daughter has been enjoying turning cocobolo and the beautiful grain and variances in color but it appears she is allergic to it. She is having some sinus problems today with runny nose, head congestion, and tightness in her throat after turning 2 pens this weekend.

My question is are there any woods similar to cocobolo that would be safer for her to turn? Until she woke up sick this morning she was planning to buy some more cocobolo but I would like to find a substitute for her to try.

She has been turning pens for about 2 months now.

Thanks!
Jennifer

Yes other rosewoods , just like cocobolo is a rosewood.
Thought of using a dust removal system and a respirator ?

 

[Krash]

You aren't using CA, are you? Her symptoms sound exactly like a CA reaction also. It can come on quickly too.

 

[jennera]

Yes, we have a respirator but she didn't wear it...it's not fancy but I think it definitely would help and we will probably add a dust collector to the lathe soon. Nothing fancy, just a shop vac attachment. We didn't want to invest too much up front but my husband is looking at a few different options.

We just have a garage shop and I was hoping that it would stay where we could park at least one car inside but I am pretty sure I have already lost that battle.

 

[jennera]

You aren't using CA, are you? Her symptoms sound exactly like a CA reaction also. It can come on quickly too.

She asked me if it could have been a reaction to the CA. She is not finishing anything with the CA but she did use it to glue up several blanks Saturday. She hasn't had this bad of a reaction before but she spent about 5 hours in the garage/shop Saturday and did not have any doors open for ventilation.

 

[duncsuss]

You aren't using CA, are you? Her symptoms sound exactly like a CA reaction also. It can come on quickly too.

She asked me if it could have been a reaction to the CA. She is not finishing anything with the CA but she did use it to glue up several blanks Saturday. She hasn't had this bad of a reaction before but she spent about 5 hours in the garage/shop Saturday and did not have any doors open for ventilation.

If she remembers the smell of CA as it cures (and anyone who has experienced it will remember the smell!) that could well be it.

But ... putting on my "safety first" hat for a moment: please get her a REAL respirator. Not a paper dust mask, but something that's specified to filter out sub-micron size particles. She only has one set of lungs.

I started with one of THESE (with THESE and THESE) -- it takes out both dust and CA fumes (though it doesn't stop the CA fumes from hitting your eyes, safety specs can help with that.)

A Shop-vac isn't a dust collector -- it's a chip collector. The real damage is done by the particles that Shop-vacs don't pull out of the air, which is why I urge everyone to get a respirator too.

 

[Krash]

You aren't using CA, are you? Her symptoms sound exactly like a CA reaction also. It can come on quickly too.

She asked me if it could have been a reaction to the CA. She is not finishing anything with the CA but she did use it to glue up several blanks Saturday. She hasn't had this bad of a reaction before but she spent about 5 hours in the garage/shop Saturday and did not have any doors open for ventilation.

My case came on suddenly, so much so that I went to the doctor twice and was prescribed antibiotics twice thinking it was the flu. It was over Xmas break and cleared up quickly once I got back to work. When it happened again (the symptoms appear about a day later), I started aligning it to when I was working with CA. All it takes now is one small usages without a respirator for the symptoms to come up again.

Have her take a break from it and see if it clears up. It's a trial and error kind of thing to nail it down. Either way, we should all be wearing some sort of filtration system to keep from breathing in chemicals or dust.

 

[ed4copies]

There are two types of people--those who are allergic to cocobolo and those who WILL BE if exposed often enough.

As one who gets those same symptoms--I CAN turn it, if I wear an airflow helmet. All the dust collection in the world will not stop you getting dust on your arms, so when the helmet comes off, the symptoms start.

I wear a long sleeve shirt. I turn cocobolo as the last project of the night. Use the airflow helmet. When finished, take off the shirt, and all other clothes, fold so the sawdust is inside and take to the laundry. Take off the helmet, take a shower immediately. Minimal effect on me.

Obviously, I only turn cocobolo when it is unavoidable (good friend or family member HAS to have something made of it).

LOTS of other materials to make pens from--especially "plastics"--some smell but unlikely to have allergic reaction!!

FWIW,
Ed

 

[jennera]

You aren't using CA, are you? Her symptoms sound exactly like a CA reaction also. It can come on quickly too.

She asked me if it could have been a reaction to the CA. She is not finishing anything with the CA but she did use it to glue up several blanks Saturday. She hasn't had this bad of a reaction before but she spent about 5 hours in the garage/shop Saturday and did not have any doors open for ventilation.

If she remembers the smell of CA as it cures (and anyone who has experienced it will remember the smell!) that could well be it.

But ... putting on my "safety first" hat for a moment: please get her a REAL respirator. Not a paper dust mask, but something that's specified to filter out sub-micron size particles. She only has one set of lungs.

I started with one of THESE (with THESE and THESE) -- it takes out both dust and CA fumes (though it doesn't stop the CA fumes from hitting your eyes, safety specs can help with that.)

A Shop-vac isn't a dust collector -- it's a chip collector. The real damage is done by the particles that Shop-vacs don't pull out of the air, which is why I urge everyone to get a respirator too.

She has one of these but yes, it sounds like more of a dust collector and won't help with the fumes. Sounds like respirator or glue things up and leave the garage while things cure with the door open.

Thanks for the recommendation on the respirator! We will definitely be getting one! Much cheaper than what they had at Rockler!

 

[duncsuss]

She has one of these

The HEPA filters (LINK) that Rockler sell as optional extras definitely improve the mesh mask, but I think the 3M is better overall (because it takes out volatile organic compounds too, such as mineral spirits and the nasty stuff in varnish/paint.)

 

[jcm71]

There are two types of people--those who are allergic to cocobolo and those who WILL BE if exposed often enough.

As one who gets those same symptoms--I CAN turn it, if I wear an airflow helmet. All the dust collection in the world will not stop you getting dust on your arms, so when the helmet comes off, the symptoms start.

I wear a long sleeve shirt. I turn cocobolo as the last project of the night. Use the airflow helmet. When finished, take off the shirt, and all other clothes, fold so the sawdust is inside and take to the laundry. Take off the helmet, take a shower immediately. Minimal effect on me.

Obviously, I only turn cocobolo when it is unavoidable (good friend or family member HAS to have something made of it).

LOTS of other materials to make pens from--especially "plastics"--some smell but unlikely to have allergic reaction!!

FWIW,
Ed

The last time I turned cocobolo my eyes were swollen shut the next day. I was using a PAPR, but I didn't take the further precautions Ed describes above. I have been scared to turn it since. BE VERY CAREFUL. Your daughter's symptoms will only get worse if she continues to turn cocobolo without proper precautions, to the point they could become life threatening.

 

[Skie_M]

Get her some Koa ....

It's a gorgeous and very dense hardwood that is similar to cocobolo for turning, and has a beauty all it's own. There's no oranges and reddish browns in it, but it's NOT a rosewood, which your daughter will have reactions to if cocobolo is starting trouble. I've seen dark browns, light browns, golden browns, and yellow-gold highlights in my Koa.

Another wood that I've had the joy of turning recently is some Ancient Kauri. This stuff is near 50,000 years old. If you've turned any Redwood Sequoia, this stuff will remind you of it VERY quickly, although it's a dark chocolate brown in color compared to the redwood's light yellow/tan. It has a beautiful chatoyance that can appear and run along the wood, especially if you take the sanding before finishing way up ... around 1200 grit! Beyond that, this feels like a SOFTWOOD, and it's very light, exactly like redwood in those respects. It's also a little stringy, just like softwoods tend to be, so using a scraper rather than a gouge can get you some better progress.


Stay away from Kingwood, Tulipwood, Cocobolo, and anything that contains the word "rosewood". As they are all related, cocobolo will sensitize you to all of the rest.

 

[jttheclockman]

Dust masks and other masks are only as good as when you use them. Just because you are done with the project does not mean take them off. If you are still in the shop it still can have an effect. Any time I am in the shop and the first time I start cutting any wood I am at the very least putting on a nuisance dust mask. If it is a serious wood day then I reach for more drastic masks.

Woods in the Rosewood family such as Cocobola can become a serious allergen. As mentioned it is really just a matter of time but also how much are you exposing yourself.

CA on the other hand is a hit or miss allergen. Some people never have an effect but it helps to limit exposure and weather it is with a mask or other ventilation will pay off down the road.

As always trying to collect dust at the source is the most effective. As mentioned you need to narrow the trigger better but can say working with Rosewoods of any kind is a danger. Other woods can create the same effects such as spalted woods or woods that have other fungus related attributes.

Plastics have their set of allergies too. Have to love shop work.

 

[magpens]

In my opinion, using cocobolo or other rosewoods is not worth the risk of allergies.

If it were me in that situation, I would find a different family of woods and learn to like them.

One that I like a lot is Bocote ... but it has completely different grain.

Koa has been mentioned also. . There are so many gorgeous woods.

 

[jennera]

Thanks for all the suggestions for wood alternatives! Is there a good alternative for CA glue?

She has turned kingswood before and loved how it turned out as well. We will have to try some of the alternatives mentioned but she will be disappointed to lose two of her favorites.

We picked up a couple of grab bags of acrylic on sale at Woodcraft last week so she has some to play with. She is planning to try some segmented blanks with it but there were some larger pieces that will make nice pens by themselves.

 

[jttheclockman]

Thanks for all the suggestions for wood alternatives! Is there a good alternative for CA glue?

She has turned kingswood before and loved how it turned out as well. We will have to try some of the alternatives mentioned but she will be disappointed to lose two of her favorites.

We picked up a couple of grab bags of acrylic on sale at Woodcraft last week so she has some to play with. She is planning to try some segmented blanks with it but there were some larger pieces that will make nice pens by themselves.

They sell odorless CA. I am not mentioning companies. I will let other taut their favorites. Get few vendors popping in will promote theirs too. There are many different finishes such as Pen Turners Plus, Epoxies which can also be smelly, lacquers is another good hard finish but it too has its odor and safety concerns. Of course there is water based lacquers that avoid the nitro lacquer problems. Then there are the reliable polyurethanes which can be dipped, brushed or sprayed. All these finishes and many more come with their own set of problems as well as safety concerns. The new kid on the block is Solerez which is UV activated and requires either sun light or a UV light source. Seems to work well. Others can talk about that too.

I suggest look through the finishing forum and read some of the older threads and if you have questions check back here.

 

[luckyscroller788]

I second the suggestion of bocote. Although it seldom has the purples in it that cocobolo does sometimes, it will occasionally. It turns nice, and in my opinion it has the prettiest grain of any wood. Curly maple also can be very pretty, especially if you wipe on some wood dyes before putting on the final finish.
For wood pens, I generally use a polyurethane glue like gorilla glue. It isn't instant like CA, so I drill and glue up a bunch at a time, and let em sit overnight, then I have some glued up when I'm ready to turn. It can be quite messy,and there are ways to control much of that, but I really prefer that over CA on wood blanks.
edit: my mention of polyurethane glue is for gluing in tubes, NOT for a finish. You wouldn't want to use that as a finish!

 

[magpens]

Jennera .... as an alternative to CA ....

If you are gluing tubes into blanks, I strongly suggest 5-minute epoxy ... I would never use CA for this because of the very short working time ... you can get the tube half in and the glue sets and you are stuck !!

If you are applying a finish to the surface of the pen (CA is often used for that) then there are lots of alternatives (which, of course, give a different appearance) and the one I would recommend is either "Pens Plus" (I think that's the name ... check with TonyL or Dan Masshardt) or EEE polish. . You can look in the "Finishing" Forum for other alternatives.

 

[Maverick KB]

You might consider Chechen, machiche, mora, katalox, jobillo and as suggested Bocote (one of my favorites) for darker woods.

Chechen and machiche have got a tight grain with variations in color. The two look almost identical at times though machiche tends to be lighter in color with slightly less color variations. The machiche makes up for this by resembling more of a figured Chechen in pattern.

Katolox is more of an ebony substitute reaching nearly black in some pieces. In lighter pieces it has a deep dark purple color, sometimes with pale streaks. A pleasure to turn and sturdy stuff.

Jobillo and Mora are a little lighter brown and give more of a 2 tone contrast. Both turn quite well, sand, finish and look great.

Bocote is the perfect high contrast, bold in your face example of woodgrain pattern. It is naturally oily, so you tend to get more "sticky" sawdust than the dry ribbons and shavings of other woods. This is normal, but does not prevent it from taking a finish or adhesives. This is one of the first woods I turned and an early favorite.

(Personal opinion) I'm not a fan of CA. Don't get me wrong, I have many bottles, brands and viscosities in the shop. It has its uses and can be invaluable at times. However, I use a polymer clay (won't dry out and get hard and reusable as adhesives won't stick to it) to plug one end of my tubes. I then coat the inside of the blank with 5 minute 2 part epoxy. A thin smear on the tube and rotate in. 3-4 minutes later (just before the epoxy fully sets) I punch out the clay with a pencil or dowell or whatever's laying around. It comes out easy and clean just before the epoxy sets with almost no work to do cleaning up the end or inside the tube. After it sets and you might have a little work to do.

Finish, I don't prefer CA. I'd much rather use Craft Coat, a UV blocking marine boat finish, lacquers, or even epoxy.. but that's just personal opinion.

Ask 5 turners any question on what's best and you'll get no less than 12 opinions. Find what works in your shop. It's trial & error and experimentation that give the best lessons.


http://shedlifellc.com/

 

[eharri446]

I have a problem when turning cherry wood, whether it is native or African, but so far have not had any issues with the rosewood family of woods. That may be that I do no turn it to often.

 

[nativewooder]

As Ed stated, Cocobolo and all other members of the Rosewood family will, at some time or other, cause reactions which could cause trips to the Emergency Room. Your daughter must change to a different type of wood if she is to enjoy woodturning.

 

[jttheclockman]

As Ed stated, Cocobolo and all other members of the Rosewood family will, at some time or other, cause reactions which could cause trips to the Emergency Room. Your daughter must change to a different type of wood if she is to enjoy woodturning.

I am sorry but this is not a true statement and I think we are going a bit overboard here. Not everyone is allergic to certain woods. I have worked with cocobolo and alot of rosewoods for over 30 years and never had a reaction. Not saying it can not happen but when proper safety techniques are followed you can work with just about any woods or finishes. I think Rosewoods are the best looking woods on the market. Just take a look at my Pen Stand entry and the rosewood base. I hated to put the velvet on top of that but that is what it needed but the edges are gorgeous.

Take the proper care when working in the shop. Making pens looks like a hobby for any age and you see the kids doing it here from photos but how many times are they not wearing a dust mask. Not cool. Find those woods that give you problems and either avoid them or take extra precautions. Find the finishes that give you problems and also avoid them or take precautions. There are so many other finishes out here. lets not make this sound like the end of the world. Enjoy the shop time but do it right. Spending that extra money on a good dust collector or air cleaner or dust and vapor mask will pay dividends. Enjoy the shop time. I was away from mine for almost 3 years and I sure do love being back.

There are tons of beautiful woods to work with and i will add zebra wood to the mix too. Love the mixes of light and dark.

 

[magpens]

Finishes for wood blanks (alternatives to CA) :

Woodturning finishes from Doctor's Woodshop > Home

 

[edicehouse]

Some have said Bocote, however realize it is very dusty and sands into a fine dust.

 

[More4dan]

My allergist gave me a simple way to test reaction to new woods. Take a small pinch of the sawdust, wet it, and put it under a bandaid on your arm for a few hours. If a red rash appears find a different wood. Dust can cause more problems than just allergic reactions and they can be long term problems.

I've had no problems with cocobolo but moradillo will leave a rash worse that poison ivy. Thuya burl will give me the equivalent of a sinus infection with just having a turned pen in my pocket.

Be safe folks.




Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[KenV]

Zebra wood is my allergic reaction wood. I do not have it in the shop now.

As Barry alluded, reactions may stay the same or they may suddenly become anaphylactic shock and need immediate emergency response to keep the airway open. Epipens are carried for such emergencies. Near death experiences with closed airway are not a desirable outcome nor the worse alternative. Have had family members do the near death gig.

Look at dyed and double dyed burls, and some of the " worthless wood" hybrid blanks too.

 

[jennera]

A better respirator is on order and she will stay away from cocobolo for awhile. She didn't have any skin reactions, just seemed like a bad asthma attack .

She will have to stay out of the shop for a few days while she recovers and while we wait for the respirator to be delivered. Maybe this summer when school is out she can try a cocobolo with the respirator to see if she still has a reaction. I think there were too many factors on Saturday to determine one or the other for sure.

We are also looking into what ventilation can be added to the garage to move the fumes out. 5 hours in an enclosed space with CA and blanks drying certainly didn't help any.

Thanks again for all the advice and recommendations! We will be much more careful from now on that we know how to prevent and what to watch for!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[Skie_M]

Simple air filtration (for large particulates) can be had by combining a plain furnace or AC filter pad with a 20-inch box fan. Just slap the filter on the back with the fan on at any speed, and it will filter the larger particles of dust out of the air as it circulates are around the shop. Having it down low somewhere works best, as the air blown through the fan will tend to rise when it hits a wall, circulating cleaner air up from the floor towards the ceiling.


Use of a multiple filter system that includes a HEPA filter set takes a lot more air pressure to move the air through, or you could just use a stronger fan or multiple fans and a LOT of filters ... you could build your own air filtration cabinet and move it round the shop as needed to filter out extremely fine particles. Either of these methods would also cut down a bit on CA fumes.


If you or she likes to have a fan blowing directly at you while working, make sure the fan is pointed from BEHIND you, so as not to blow fumes directly at the face. This will also help to keep particles from landing on your face and skin.