Cheap accelerant

[ctEaglesc]

When I glue up tubes I use CA exclusively, I like the idea I can glue,the tubes and turn my pens as soon as I cut and mill to length.
Until recently I didn't mind using the little accelerant I did because it kept my blanks from sticking to where ever I set them down.
When I started gluing my spirals I found that I was using a lot of acclerant for a small area.
I tried the pump bottle accelerant but I have found for me it evaporates too quickly(Loss from the bottle)
I like the aerosol but my local supplier charges $12.00 a can even though another supplier(4 hours away round trip) sells the same thing for $6.95.
In a moment of desperation I filled a pump bottle with denatured alcahol and gave a glue joint a "spritz" .
It foamed up white and "set" ALMOST as well as regular accelerant.
I don't normally accelerant if I use CA as a finish, just after gluing in tubes as I described earlier or adding oops rings or CB'S.
Alcohol is a lot cheaper than "purchased accelerant"
So far other than the foaming(which gets turned off) I have found no ill effects in using it.
I had contemplated using acetone but the only container ever tried filling with it melted.
The alcohol is the way to go.
In the spiral I have pictured I used alcohol to cure the glue and turned the same day.
You may want to try this if you use CA or run out of accelerant.
If this is a model builders tip forgive me for posting what I thought a money/time saving idea (Hey, I'm frugal!).
I have never seen this suggestion offered.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Eagle said, "I had contemplated using acetone but the only container ever tried filling with it melted."
Try doing a search for nalgene bottles, they are unaffected by just about everything there is. Nalgene is used for storing solvents and all kinds of wicked stuff.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Thanks for the tip Frank.I'll keep my eye out but the spray bottles that work with alcahol are plentiful and cheap at Wall Mart.
Both Alcahol and Acetone are volitile but I feel as though alcolhol is the lesser of 2 evils.
[]

 

[rtparso]

The common Nalgene is HDPE. They also sell Teflon and other stuff. But the price gets real high. Try this site http://www.sciplus.com/index.cfm and here is the page for the bottles
http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=7&category=79. They are a lot cheaper then most retailers. And no I don’t give myself “product bonuses†from work. Also if you look on the bottom of all plastics they should have a mark (HDPE, LDPE, TFE etc.). Anything marked HDPE is the same as anything else with HDPE just like the generic OTC meds[xx(]. Also if you want to store a chemical look at this site http://www.flw.com/material/index.html for compatibility. Can you tell I work (some folks would argue with that statement) for a lab[8D].

 

[William Young]

Eagles;
Thanks very much for the denetured alcohol tip. I use a fair anount of CA on turning bowls for stabilizing knots etc.
Got a new pump bottle of accelerator at high cost and do you think I can find where I stored it ? I was going to order more but I am going to try the alcohol first. I have gallons of that for use in the drying process of green wood bowl blanks.
W.Y.
Learn something every day.

 

[Travlr7]

Thanks Eagles............I'm cheap, too. Have Alcohol available. Will be using.

Bruce[]

 

[JimGo]

Great tip, thanks Eagle!

 

[timdaleiden]

A simple cup of water with a table spoon of baking soda will work too. I wouldn't use it for finishing, but it will set CA quickly.

Acetone has been used by many people for de-bonding, so I am not sure why this would be used to accelerate. I have heard that some accelerators have acetone in them, but I doubt it is the main component.

 

[DCBluesman]

For those of you who use the CA buld buy through this site, here is a portion of the Material Data Safety Sheet for EZ Bond's accelerant.

K & R International
1533 Summitridge Dr. Diamond Bar, CA 91765
TEL: 909-860-7880 FAX : 909-861-7093
www.e-zbond.com E-mail: sales@e-zbond.com
_____________________________________________________________________
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
Item No. A-201, A-801
1 CHEMICAL PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION
Product Name: Accelerator
2 COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS.
Chemical Name CAS Number WT/WT% Less Than
Acetone 87-84-1 68.0%
N-Butane 106-97-8 14.0%
Propane 74-98-6 15.0%

 

[timdaleiden]

From Lou:


>>>>K & R International
1533 Summitridge Dr. Diamond Bar, CA 91765
TEL: 909-860-7880 FAX : 909-861-7093
www.e-zbond.com E-mail: sales@e-zbond.com
_____________________________________________________________________
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
Item No. A-201, A-801
1 CHEMICAL PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION
Product Name: Accelerator
2 COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS.
Chemical Name CAS Number WT/WT% Less Than
Acetone 87-84-1 68.0%
N-Butane 106-97-8 14.0%
Propane 74-98-6 15.0%<<<<<

Aaah, so it is the main component. I wasn't sure, which is why I said that “I doubtâ€-ed that it was, rather than stating it as fact.

Regardless, pure Acetone “is†used as a de-bonder, so that would make it rather useless as an accelerant. Also, water and baking soda will work, I have used it myself. It doesn’t get much cheaper than that.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by timdaleiden
<br />From Lou:


&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;K & R International
1533 Summitridge Dr. Diamond Bar, CA 91765
TEL: 909-860-7880 FAX : 909-861-7093
www.e-zbond.com E-mail: sales@e-zbond.com
_____________________________________________________________________
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET
Item No. A-201, A-801
1 CHEMICAL PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION
Product Name: Accelerator
2 COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS.
Chemical Name CAS Number WT/WT% Less Than
Acetone 87-84-1 68.0%
N-Butane 106-97-8 14.0%
Propane 74-98-6 15.0%&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Aaah, so it is the main component. I wasn't sure, which is why I said that “I doubtâ€-ed that it was, rather than stating it as fact.

Regardless, pure Acetone “is†used as a de-bonder, so that would make it rather useless as an accelerant. Also, water and baking soda will work, I have used it myself. It doesn’t get much cheaper than that.

I was just pointing out an observation to an experiment I tried.
I didn't want to use water(though I thought of it) as each piece I was gluing at the time was glued immediately after the other.Since the pieces were so small I did not want to CA to set the instant I applied it to damp wood.(Also did not want to raise the grain.
Cut blank for inlay, test fit inlay, apply glue, wipe with towel,spritz with accelerant,trim with razor knife, plane smooth.120 times.
I wasn't sure baking soda would stay mixed or clog the nozzle on the pump bottle,I thought of ammonia but realized what I could buy is not pure ammonia and didn't want any residue.(Norr work with anything that strong)
If you are so sure that it is useless as an accelerant,dribble a little wet CA with acetone.You will see that you are wrong.
By the way thanks for all the tips.(Hind sight is 20-20)

 

[timdaleiden]

Originally posted by cteaglesc
[brIf you are so sure that it is useless as an accelerant,dribble a little wet CA with acetone.You will see that you are wrong.

Actually, I don't have any pure acetone in my shop. I do have debonding spray just in case things get too sticky.

I'll take your word that it will set CA. It still makes no sense to me that something that is used for debonding, should be used to set it. That would be like using fingernail polish remover to set fingernail polish. ((((Shrug))))

Quite frankly, I hesitate to mix any chemicals together, unless I am pretty darn sure what's going to happen. If you want to experiment, go right ahead. If you find something very incompatible, as in "Ka-blooeee," I am sure the rest of the group would appreciate a "heads up".

 

[Scottydont]

I know it has been explained here before, but here is a caption from www.howstuffworks.com explaining how CA is activated. That will explain why several different liquids can be used as excellerant.

<u><b>From Howstuffworks:</b></u>
Super glue deserves its name -- a single drop can permanently join your thumb to your index finger faster than you can say "Whoops," and a 1-square-inch bond can hold more than a ton. So how does this remarkable substance work? The answer lies in its main ingredient, cyanoacrylate (C5H5NO2, for you chemistry buffs).

Cyanoacrylate is an acrylic resin that cures (forms its strongest bond) almost instantly. The only trigger it requires is the hydroxyl ions in water, which is convenient since virtually any object you might wish to glue will have at least trace amounts of water on its surface.

White glues, such as Elmer's, bond by solvent evaporation. The solvent in Elmer's all-purpose school glue is water. When the water evaporates, the polyvinylacetate latex that has spread into a material's crevices forms a flexible bond. Super glue, on the other hand, undergoes a process called anionic polymerization. Cyanoacrylate molecules start linking up when they come into contact with water, and they whip around in chains to form a durable plastic mesh. The glue thickens and hardens until the thrashing molecular strands can no longer move.

If you think cyanoacrylate's ability to repair broken knick-knacks is super, wait until you hear about its other tricks. Super-glue fuming is sometimes used in criminal investigations to detect latent fingerprints. It works like this:

The object to be checked for prints is placed in a heated, airtight container.
Cyanoacrylate is introduced; it evaporates and is circulated throughout the container by fans.
The gaseous glue reacts with materials that may have been left behind in fingerprints (such as amino acids and glucose) and makes them visible.
Another interesting application is the use of cyanoacrylate to close wounds in place of stitches. Researchers found that by changing the type of alcohol in super glue, from ethyl or methyl alcohol to butyl or octyl, the compound becomes less toxic to tissue. With further research, the practice may become more widespread and could eventually replace the need for stitching up lacerations.
By the way, if you happen to find yourself in a super-sticky situation, a little bit of acetone nail-polish remover helps to unglue fingers.

 

[ctEaglesc]

One point I would like to add about what I have observed about CA.
Yes it "cures" in the presence of moisture but also in the absence of air.
My biggest concern other than the glue joint is strong enough is the glue that winds up on the pieces I am gluing.
That is my main reason for the accelerant.
Once the piece is "Spritzed" the joint is for all intense and purposes "hermettically sealed"
It's what is outside the joint that get's stuck to my fingers.
As far as acetone is conserned I KNOW first hand it will accelerate the "set-up" process as well as dissolve set up glue.
(isn't there a drug that stops a beating heart and start a stopped one?)
I once returned a bottle of accelerant(labeled as such) to
Woodcraft because immediately upon opening the bottle I realized I had been taken.
Their price for 6 ounces was $12.00.active ingredient acetone.
I buy a gallon of acetone at Lowes for about $12.00.
Anyway, there are different ways to "set" CA glue and I had never seen alcohol mentioned.
Use it if you want ,if you don't want to, don't.
[]
(your mileage may vary.)

 

[timdaleiden]

In the interest of science, and at no great expense, I decided to find out what happens when I try to set CA with debonder. It quickly gelled and remained that way. It quickly made CA that had already set into a rubbery blob. I have no idea if it is pure Acetone. No info on the label.

My quick set spray did what it was supposed to do. No info on that label either.

So...in conclusion...I have decided that I never want to become a chemist, that CA debonder works for it's intended purpose, that "quick set" works for it's intended purpose, that manufacturers don't always tell you what is in their product(s), and that poly glue is still the messiest way to glue in tubes.

I am not sure what all of this means, but I thought I would share.

 

[William Young]

OK then, ... has anyone here besides Eagle tried the alcohol method ? I have been too busy here with a housefull of relatives on a Canadian stat holidy as well as administrating my own site to get out in the shop and try it. I sure hope the alcohol works because it would save me big bucks ordering the accelerator from USA and paying shipping charges with UPS etc.
I have never found a supplier yet in Canada that sells accelerator and the big box stores and any hardware stores look at my like I have two heads when I ask if they have any.
W.Y.

 

[timdaleiden]

William, I have no idea about the denatured alcohol. It is quite possible it works just fine.

Here is a post Russ Fairfield made some time ago on Yahoo Penturners.
I hope he doesn't mind me copying, and posting it here.

&gt;&gt;&gt;Message 50108
From: Russ Fairfield
Date: 7/5/2004 11:20:00 AM
Subject: A few things about CA glue, Ph, and Accelerators

CA glue is acidic, and almost any alkaline material, one with a Ph
higher than 7 will react with CA as an accelerator. And the more
alkyline it is, the faster the reaction.
An accelerator can cause the CA to foam with a reaction that is
similar to cleaning the terminals on a car battery with Baking Soda.
The foaming can be avoided by waiting a minute before using the
accelerator. This allows the CA to start a cure by itself, and the
reaction with the accelerator will not be as violent.
We should avoid the use of an accelerator whenever possible because
CA glue that has cured without an accelerator is a stronger bond than
one that was. As a finish, CA glue that wasn't accelerated will be
harder than one that was.
There is no need to fool around with Lye solutions. Baking Soda will
do the same thing, and a homebrew accelerator can be made with a
solution of Baking Sada in distilled water. Distilled because City
Water because the Chlorine, flouridation, and other chemicals that
are added to it.
Depending on our water supply, we can sometimes use tap-water as an
accelerator. The problem is that not all water is equal. Water that
we would call "hard" may be used as a mild accelerator, while water
that is "soft" will do nothing. Regardless of its "hardness", The
presence of Chlorine and flourides in the water may render it useless
as an accelerator.
Woods of different species can have a different Ph. The oils in some
of the exotics can be very acidic (low Ph) and that will slow the
reaction of the CA glue in curing. Others can be alkaline and
accelerate the reaction.
There can also be a considerable variation between trees of the same
species because of where they grew. All wood will contain some amount
of whatever was in the soil and water where it grew. The wood can
contain considerable quantities of metallic salts (Ph higher than 7)
that enter the tree from the soil. Climate, how close to salt water,
the Ph of the soil and ground water, etc. will all influence the Ph
of the wood. Where the wood came from on the tree can also be a
factor because wood that is closer to the ground will contain more
soil chemicals.
Russ Fairfield
http:www.woodturnerruass.com/Pen10.html

&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; End Quote

 

[ctEaglesc]

Interesting information, thanks for posting it.
I like the fact that alcahol evaporates quicker than water and it works fine.
I will try the baking soda, but i do not buy bottled water to drink.(I am not a water snob nor a tool snob) so I doubt I will buy distilled to spray on glue.
Too much acid rain to use rain water I have city water and with the little rainfall we've been getting, every drop is precious.
Guess I'll stick with the booze.
Please bear in mind my purpose for the acclereant.
I am not spraying a piece that is to be glued anda applying lue to the other.
I am trying to stop the piece from sticking to me or anything else it touches.
There is no accelerant applied to the joint itself.

 

[timdaleiden]

Originally posted by cteaglesc
<br />Please bear in mind my purpose for the acclereant.
I am not spraying a piece that is to be glued anda applying lue to the other.
I am trying to stop the piece from sticking to me or anything else it touches.
There is no accelerant applied to the joint itself.

Eagle,

I understand that your use of accelerator in this case was expressly for keeping your complex glue up from getting stuck to everything in your immediate area, including your own hands.

I was just trying to offer a cheap and safe alternative for you and those that read the posts here.

For finishing, I wouldn't use the baking soda thing, but for a quick set in other applications, it may work just fine.

 

[JimGo]

Eagle,
I'm not sure how things are where you live, but here, the grocery stores carry a gallon of distilled water for $0.99. That will make a LOT of accelerant!

 

[Queso]

If all you're concerned about is the price of it, try this. I bought the small "mild" accelerator bottle from Woodcraft. When that was empty, I washed the bottle out and refilled it with from the 8 oz accelerator bottle. I also bought a drip nozzle from Woodcraft that fit on the 2 oz bottle. Now, instead of mesing around with the spray (the pump is worthless and a lot is wasted, not to mention evaporation) I just let a few drops drip onto the blank I'm using. The tip came with a cap that goes back on the bottle when I'm not using it.

Cheap, and you don't have to mess around with a home brew.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by JimGo
<br />Eagle,
I'm not sure how things are where you live, but here, the grocery stores carry a gallon of distilled water for $0.99. That will make a LOT of accelerant!

I wrote the part about buying water a little tongue in cheek.
There is still the evaporation factor.
I don't normally like to wet wood with water and very rarely use poly glue.
CA may be messy but at lest it is relatively clear.
It comes off with acetone(which I do keep on hand, cleaning bushings etc...)