Cartridge pen--Next problem

[jttheclockman]

OK got my cartridge pens to the point of bullet installed, tube soldered in and ready to assemble. I have read people with this problem but do not remember the solution. For those of you that solder your tubes in how do you get the tranny in and end cap on?? More so the tranny. Seems when you solder the tube is so solid there is no play for the tranny. Bought a .249 reamer because I thought that was what someone was using. Tried to ream the tube using a handheld drill and the whole is too large and the parts slip in to easily. I hate to glue these things in.


Problem #2-- these are powdercoted so how do I do this without wrecking the powdercoating. I think Rick now inserts the tranny before he powdercoats. It was too late when I read that. Help please.

Third problem--i accidently dropped a cartridge I have designated for a key ring and it has the bullet in it. Now I did two things when I assembled these and that was use CA glue and did crimp using a ammo reloader crimp with the correct die. And yet when it hit the floor the bullet came out. Now tthat is not suppose to happen. Has anyone had these problems and how do I correct this??? I am afraid all the others are suspect to this failure if dropped. Not a good day for sure.

 

[rherrell]

PM sent.

 

[Leather Man]

Rick,
Would it be possible for you to answer these questions here? I am in the process of doing these also and could use the same answers.
Thanks
Ben

 

[rherrell]

I told John that he was probably going too deep with the .249" reamer. Once you get past the part of the tube thats soldered you can stop. The rigid connection of the solder won't allow the brass tube to expand so you only need to go about 3/8" deep to get past it.
As for his bullets falling out, I told him that after I read that I took one of mine and dropped it on a tile floor 10 times from 6' and nothing happened. I don't know what he is doing wrong.
I told him to make a press block from some softwood to help protect the finish when pressing in the transmission.

 

[TellicoTurning]

John,
I don't use a bullet for a nib, nor do I powder coat so I can't answer your specific questions.. but I make my cartridge pens from 30-06 cartridges. I bought a bag of the casings from Gander Mountain and drill the firing cap end to take a 7mm tube. I put the 7mm tube in using a method I read about either here or on another pen site... I put a length of shrink tubing on the internal tube about 1/2" or less in length, heat it to shrink it, then use Gorilla Glue to hold the tube in place. I have a dedicated facing tool that I cut the brass tube flush with both ends... then I can just press the transmission and nib in normally. You have to watch the length of the transmission slightly since the casing is a little longer than the normal slimline bottom barrel. I also like to use the copper nibs from the copper kits, but will use the gold finished ones too.

I don't powder coast or finish the cartridges... I shine them with brasso really well, then tell my customers that the cartridge will tarnish with usage, but can be shined back with brasso (or in a pinch tabasco sauce). Haven't had any complaints to date on the cartridges. I think my customers actually like the fact that they will tarnish a little.

Haven't done any keyrings, so no answer there.

 

[sbell111]

... I don't powder coast or finish the cartridges... I shine them with brasso really well, then tell my customers that the cartridge will tarnish with usage, but can be shined back with brasso (or in a pinch tabasco sauce). Haven't had any complaints to date on the cartridges. I think my customers actually like the fact that they will tarnish a little.

I've clearcoated some of mine, but most I just polish up and leave 'natural'. Like you, I believe that many customers like the fact that the pen will tarnish a bit ensuring that the bullet has a 'real deal' look. Otherwise, they can bring it back to shiny with a bit of duraglit or brasso. As a bonus, I don't have to stress out over potentially screwing up the clear.

As an aside, I don't make powdercoated bullets because I don't think they look 'real'. I prefer to simply build my pens using brass or nickel cartridges.

 

[rherrell]

I've clearcoated some of mine, but most I just polish up and leave 'natural'. Like you, I believe that many customers like the fact that the pen will tarnish a bit ensuring that the bullet has a 'real deal' look. Otherwise, they can bring it back to shiny with a bit of duraglit or brasso. As a bonus, I don't have to stress out over potentially screwing up the clear.

As an aside, I don't make powdercoated bullets because I don't think they look 'real'. I prefer to simply build my pens using brass or nickel cartridges.

You've never held one of mine in your hand. You have to look REAL hard to tell it's powdercoated.:biggrin:
I think it all boils down to what kind of quality you're after. I would NEVER sell a casing pen and tell the customer that to keep it looking good they have to polish it with Brasso. Heck, as fast as brass tarnishes, you'd have to polish it at least once a week and FOR ME that's unacceptable.:wink::biggrin:

 

[Woodlvr]

Not to change the subject but how do you make a keyring out of one of the shells? I buy mine from you experts that make them available to us and use the coated kits that way I do not get the complaints or call backs about keeping them shiny.

 

[sbell111]

You've never held one of mine in your hand. You have to look REAL hard to tell it's powdercoated.
I think it all boils down to what kind of quality you're after. I would NEVER sell a casing pen and tell the customer that to keep it looking good they have to polish it with Brasso.

You misunderstood both Chuck's post and mine. The primary reason that I don't put a clear finish on mine is because many customers prefer it that way. The fact that it takes away a step or two is just a big old bonus.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not a powdercoated bullet looks OK. I'm not a fan of it. You are.

 

[Sylvanite]

You've never held one of mine in your hand. You have to look REAL hard to tell it's powdercoated.

Rick,

Does that mean you've found a way to keep the bright pink copper bullet color from changing while coating? If so, can you share the technique? I've found the color difference between a freshly polished bare cartridge, and a powder coated one is distinctly noticable. The heat of baking affects both the copper bullet and the brass case.

Now, I've had some uncoated cartridges that had tarnished slightly and looked just like the powder coated ones. I was fooled momentarily until I took some 0000 steel wool to the bullets and they pinked back up.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Sylvanite]

OK got my cartridge pens to the point of bullet installed, tube soldered in and ready to assemble. I have read people with this problem but do not remember the solution. For those of you that solder your tubes in how do you get the tranny in and end cap on?? More so the tranny. Seems when you solder the tube is so solid there is no play for the tranny. Bought a .249 reamer because I thought that was what someone was using. Tried to ream the tube using a handheld drill and the whole is too large and the parts slip in to easily.

I think Rick pretty succinctly summed up his technique for reaming. I might try the reamer someday, (and I have reamed with a letter D bit in the past), but my current practice is different.

Problem #2-- these are powdercoted so how do I do this without wrecking the powdercoating. I think Rick now inserts the tranny before he powdercoats. It was too late when I read that. Help please.

Well, you could strip the powder coat, insert the transmission, and recoat. Typical polyester powder paint softens in acetone. Just soak the cartridge for 10 minutes and rub.

Or, you could make a press block (a block of wood with a hole drilled through it for the bullet and case neck) so that you're pressing against the case shoulder rather than the bullet.

Third problem--i accidently dropped a cartridge I have designated for a key ring and it has the bullet in it. Now I did two things when I assembled these and that was use CA glue and did crimp using a ammo reloader crimp with the correct die. And yet when it hit the floor the bullet came out. Now tthat is not suppose to happen. Has anyone had these problems and how do I correct this??? I am afraid all the others are suspect to this failure if dropped.

Did you resize the case before seating the bullet? Neck tension alone is usually much more secure than you describe. If you also crimped and glued the bullet in place, there is no way it should have come out just from dropping. I simply seat the bullet with a reloading press and it is firm enough that I can press in a transmission without it moving. When I drop a cartridge, I worry about dents and scratches -- not about the bullet coming out.

Regards,
Eric

 

[jttheclockman]

Not to change the subject but how do you make a keyring out of one of the shells? I buy mine from you experts that make them available to us and use the coated kits that way I do not get the complaints or call backs about keeping them shiny.

I will tell you how I make my keyrings and it is simple. I use a 308 shell which is smaller than a 30-06.I install the bullet just as if I do it for a pen just that you do not need to drill it out. Use the tube that comes with the keyring kit which is the same a slimline pen. 7mm. I solder mine in in the neck and then ream the tube which I have to ream about a 1/8 inch and then press in the keyring part.


Rick answered alot of my questions and will have to pay more attention to the reaming of the tubes more so. The powdercoating I think is a matter of choice. I may also make some with no powdercoating and just polished. I will not lacquer them because the lacquer will chip and that would look ugly. Powdercoating may also chip but the chances are better that it will dent before it chips. I seen that also when droped.

Eric

I used new cartridges and used a reloading crimp. Believe me I thought these were tight enough without crimping but I bought the crimper and applied the crimp. I am thinking I did not crimp as tight on the keyrings as I did on the pens because it was a different die and need to readjust it. Will learn from that one. Just must have hit just right on the floor.
One thing I did notice Eric was that the all copper bullets turned darker than the ones with lead in them. when powdercoated but still a nice copper look. Do not know why. I want to try turning some antler and some acrylic tops this weekend for some and if successful I will try to get some photos. I need to dig the camera out and charge the batteries. I also need to phot some of the other work I have been working on to get ready for my show anyway.

 

[Leather Man]

Rick,
Thanks for your response. Do you seat the bullet before or after you powder coat the case?
Ben

 

[rherrell]

Rick,

Does that mean you've found a way to keep the bright pink copper bullet color from changing while coating? If so, can you share the technique? I've found the color difference between a freshly polished bare cartridge, and a powder coated one is distinctly noticable. The heat of baking affects both the copper bullet and the brass case.

Now, I've had some uncoated cartridges that had tarnished slightly and looked just like the powder coated ones. I was fooled momentarily until I took some 0000 steel wool to the bullets and they pinked back up.

Regards,
Eric

Of course not, what it DOES mean is that the AVERAGE customer, AND ME, can't tell the color difference unless you put a coated and uncoated casing side by side. Obviously you're not average Eric, you work with them every day and the AVERAGE customer doesn't. Yes, there is a slight color change that happens but it's a slight OVERALL change. No rings or discolored "spots".
You will however have some funny discoloration happen if they are not polished to a mirror shine. Between sanding with 3 different grits and polishing with 2 different wheels and compounds I'll bet I spend 30 min. getting one casing to the level of shine that I want. Try putting that much time into one and see if that minimizes your discoloration problems.
This is the main reason I don't sell "ready to make" casings. With the time I have invested, what I would have to charge would be prohibitive. I would be curious to see what the casings look like that these guys are getting $4-$8 for. :wink:

 

[rherrell]

Rick,
Thanks for your response. Do you seat the bullet before or after you powder coat the case?
Ben

Before, Ben.

 

[Sylvanite]

Of course not, what it DOES mean is that the AVERAGE customer, AND ME, can't tell the color difference unless you put a coated and uncoated casing side by side.

Rats. I keep having hopes that we can find a way to block the color change. Yes, it's slight, and goes unnoticed by most people, but it is enough to keep a copper clip from matching. I have a neighbor who is a custom jeweler and he tells me there should be a plating process that would yield a nice pink result. Perhaps I need to pick his brain some more.

Between sanding with 3 different grits and polishing with 2 different wheels and compounds I'll bet I spend 30 min. getting one casing to the level of shine that I want. This is the main reason I don't sell "ready to make" casings. With the time I have invested, what I would have to charge would be prohibitive.

Absolutely true. The cartridges I sell do not have that level of shine. They have been sized, tumble-polished, hand wooled and hand polished (if need be), powder-coated, and hand-wooled and wheel polished again (if need be). They shine, but are not mirror-reflective. You simply are not going to get that for $10 a pop.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Sylvanite]

I will not lacquer them because the lacquer will chip and that would look ugly. Powdercoating may also chip but the chances are better that it will dent before it chips.

There probably are lacquer formulations, and other paints (especially baked-on ones) that will hold up. I haven't tried them though. Powder paint is quite durable. It even stands up to buffing with white diamond -- in fact, Eastwood recommends it.

I thought these were tight enough without crimping but I bought the crimper and applied the crimp. I am thinking I did not crimp as tight on the keyrings as I did on the pens because it was a different die and need to readjust it. Will learn from that one.

With bottleneck cases, neck tension is usually sufficient to hold a bullet in place. Crimping isn't typically necessary unless recoil is very severe. I did run across a bullet design once, that actually became loose when crimping. That was the Remington Golden Sabre bullet (a premium hollow point handgun bullet). If run through a Lee carbide "Factory Crimp Die", the driving band would crush and the bullet would come loose. But, I don't think that's the case here.

One thing I did notice Eric was that the all copper bullets turned darker than the ones with lead in them. when powdercoated but still a nice copper look. Do not know why.

I'd suspect differences in the copper alloy. I have noticed that different brands of brass darken differently when powder-coated as well. The brands I've had the most problem with are the softer alloys, and the ones that are factory annealed. They tend to darken more, especially around the case web.

Regards,
Eric

 

[jttheclockman]

Wow Rick that is alot more steps than what I did. I put the crtridge in the Beall chuck and hit it with a fine nonwoven pad and brought a nice shine but then took over to the polishing wheel and polished with the green stick stuff and it comes out to a mirror shine that I am more than happy with. Then powdercoat. I think the trickiest thing about powdercoating is not the setup but the jigs you need to hold the parts to powdercoat. But figured that out pretty much so. Another thing I learned about powdercoting is leave the oven outdoors. That stuff does smell.

Eric

You are probably right about the lacquer but would not trust everyday Deft or any waterbased lacquers. You would need to scuff the cartridge to get a bite and that is not what you are after. Unlike wood it will not be absorbed in to the metal. I disagree with you and the copper kits and bullets not matching up. I bet they are a very close match. I am going to order some copper kits in the near future because I like that look and it is classy if classy can be used with a bullet pen. Your other assessments about the crimping and sizing are probably right because I have very limited experience here and am not a hunter so can't draw on that either. But will pay more attention next time to my crimping style. I did notice when the bullet did fal out I did notice a indented ring around where the neck was so it must have crimpped somewhat. But maybe not enough. Need to adjust the crimp more next time.

 

[ribanett]

Brass Laquer

There probably are lacquer formulations, and other paints (especially baked-on ones) that will hold up. I haven't tried them though. Powder paint is quite durable. It even stands up to buffing with white diamond -- in fact, Eastwood recommends it.


Eric,

I make about 50-60 bullet pens per month. About 90% of them are cut-case pens with acrylic. It is not possible to PC these pens because of the acrylic. I have found one laquer that works very well, StayBrite Brass Laquer. I have used this coating for over 6 months without a bad word from my customers. I have used the first pen I finished this way for over 6 months, everyday. The finish is still as bright as when I finished it.

The barrels must be CLEAN before applying the laquer. I wipe down the barrels with DNA just before coating.

Just my 2 cents or maybe a nickle

 

[Hosspen]

I know nothing about powder coating so this may be a dumb question, but I was just wondering if anyone has tried powdercoating a factory copper pen clip to see if it matches a powdercoated copper bullet? I don't even know if that is something possible, just thinking out loud really.
I have bought some casings w/bullets from Eric and have been very pleased with the different combinations I've received from him.

 

[cozee]

Between sanding with 3 different grits and polishing with 2 different wheels and compounds I'll bet I spend 30 min. getting one casing to the level of shine that I want. :wink:

I sell more casing pens than anything else. Probably because I enjoy doing them the most. I typically do 2 at a time on the lathe. If I start with casings that have no scratches, I can get a mirror finish in about 5 minutes or less. Casings with scratches take a little longer but usually none more than 10 minutes. If I had to spend 30 minutes to get one casing to shine, I wouldn't be doing them. For a quick shine, not mirror but acceptable, on an unscratched casing, 000 or 0000 steel wool and some Brasso and in 30 seconds or less on the lathe and your ready to go! Well, after a quick wipe down with a soft cloth and some lighter fluid or Naptha.

I sell both PCed and uncoated brass. Most of the ones I sell are uncoated as most know how to polish brass and have no problem doing so. I find they also prefer the feel as there is a difference. Same as between a brass and nickle plated casing. The PCed casings have a slicker feel, even when compared to a mirror polished casing.

As for a rack (jig) to PC casings, this is what I use. Simply plug the nib end with some foil, slip over rod and your off!! The bottom of the rods are wrapped with foil to serve a couple of purposes. One, to keep the casings from wiggling when being coated; to help keep the powder out of the tubes; and to help the electrical contact between casing and rack.