Cartridge pen making questions

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GaryMGg

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I have some questions for everyone else making cartridge pens.

I turn the base of the upper barrel to match the top of the 308. I work carefully to follow the 308's form and fit 'em tightly.
So, one of the finished pens looked good until I rotated the barrel too much while closing the pen and got it out of alignment?!? What I found is that the cartridge wasn't round and I had turned the lower end of the upper barrel to match it.
Okay, I rotated it back and sure enough everything lines up. That is, of course, until the pen is opened again.
It's out of round enough that I'm surprised I didn't notice the shape while working it.

Questions thus:
1. Do y'all check the cartridge for roundness before using it?
2. If it's not round, do you try to make it so and is there really a way to do that accurately?
3. If ya don't worry about round, would you follow the non-round shape when making the upper barrel?
4. If you answer yes to #3, do you match things up when open or closed?
5. If you think these questions are anal, please go back to #1 and start over. [}:)]

After making some 308's from Gary Max, a friend saw them and gave me a bunch of 30-06's. This is the first time I've experienced an out of round cartridge.

Gary
 
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TAld

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Gary sure hope you will post pic of that. I can't even imagine how that could happen. The casing has to true for it to be chambered correctly and ejected correctly. My neighbor is a reloader (25 yrs) and I will ask his opinion tomorrow. Have you taken any measurements? Maybe place another casing back to back for a visual. I'm stumped.
 

its_virgil

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Check and see if the pen part you turn is out of round. This would also cause the misalignment. I too find it unlikely the cartridge is the one that is out of round...but hey, I could be wrong.
Do a good turn daily!
Don
Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />I have some questions for everyone else making cartridge pens.

I turn the base of the upper barrel to match the top of the 308. I work carefully to follow the 308's form and fit 'em tightly.
So, one of the finished pens looked good until I rotated the barrel too much while closing the pen and got it out of alignment?!? What I found is that the cartridge wasn't round and I had turned the lower end of the upper barrel to match it.
Okay, I rotated it back and sure enough everything lines up. That is, of course, until the pen is opened again.
It's out of round enough that I'm surprised I didn't notice the shape while working it.

Questions thus:
1. Do y'all check the cartridge for roundness before using it?
2. If it's not round, do you try to make it so and is there really a way to do that accurately?
3. If ya don't worry about round, would you follow the non-round shape when making the upper barrel?
4. If you answer yes to #3, do you match things up when open or closed?
5. If you think these questions are anal, please go back to #1 and start over. [}:)]

After making some 308's from Gary Max, a friend saw them and gave me a bunch of 30-06's. This is the first time I've experienced an out of round cartridge.

Gary
 
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Possibly the cartridge case is not out-of-round, but the tube installed in it could be slightly off-center.....is that a possibility? That would certainly explain why it shifts in alignment to the upper barrel.
 

micah

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You might check that the cartridge was drilled out properly. I noticed that some of mine are not centered exact, and I was afraid that exact thing might happen. I have only made a couple of them so far, but I also picked out the 2 that I thought were close enough to being drilled correctly that it wouldn't effect them. I haven't made one yet with any of the others, but I do have a feeling that it will be a slight problem. Hopefully not enought though to cause too big a headache.
 

Malainse

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I agree with Lost and micah...

Take the top off another 7mm pen that you know it square and see if that turns squarely. That should tell you if it is the one you turned or the cartridge end that is giving you the issue??
 

Texasbeachbum

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I haven't found a out of round 308 yet. I have made close to 100 of these pens. One thing I have found is if you drill from the bullet end of the cartriage you will get it centered almost every time.
 

cozee

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Gotta agree that I have never found an out of round casing, be it .308, 30-06, .223, .45, .38, and the big 50's. Sounds like it was drilled off center. It is easy enough to do idf one is in a bit of a hurry and rush it. Brass is soft and the bit can easily walk off center, especially when drilling from the primer end.
 

GaryMGg

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Following up, here's the deal:
The casing is a tiny, tiny bit less than perfectly round. With a caliper on the shoulder
that meets the barrel, I can't see a gap but when turning the casing round I can feel it is tighter in some places than others. So, I'm talking about thousandths.
Add to that, in my attempt to perfectly match the barrel, I magnified the error -- so it's also out of round by thousandths.
BUT, the real culprit is that the tube isn't centered perfectly -- it's visibly off.
I never thought to check it before making the pen, but I measured from the edge of the transmission to the shoulder of the casing and it's not equidistant all the way around. That's the first one I've gotten one where the tube wasn't centered in the casing.
Problem solved.

Thanks for the input.
Gary
 

Sylvanite

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Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />...the real culprit is that the tube isn't centered perfectly -- it's visibly off.
That's why I drill my cases (and bullets) on the lathe and use a center bit. This gives me a nice concentric hole. Now the biggest source of error comes from not centering the tube in the hole perfectly when gluing.

I also regularly turn my pens a couple thousandths proud of the mating hardware. Wood is going to swell and shrink a little anyway, with changes in temperature and humidity. A couple thousandths proud is not as noticable as a couple thousandths shy. With casing pens, I usually turn the mating piece with a rounded over or beveled edge. That tends to cover up small concentricity errors.
 

Gary Max

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I know how you got a out-of-round casing---they are picked up off the ground---someone stepped on it.
We try to watch every one of our casings----any that look wrong get tossed/recycled. I wonder what brass is selling for these days????????
 

KenV

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Just ordered 100 nickel plated, unprimed, 308 cases for pens at just under $33 plus shipping. Used cases, unless national match quality run quite a bit less.
 

Sylvanite

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Originally posted by Gary Max
<br />I know how you got a out-of-round casing---they are picked up off the ground---someone stepped on it.
When a cartridge is fired, the brass case expands to the dimensions of the gun's chamber. This is, of necessity, a little larger than the dimensions of the ammunition. In some cases (especially with machine guns), it is significantly larger. A seasoned reloader can distinguish between most fired and resized brass at a glance.

I routinely run all my cases (fired or new) through a full-length sizing die before drilling. This irons out small dings, fixes any flat spots, and returns them to SAAMI spec. It also cleans up the shoulder and sizes the neck. That way, I can seat a drilled-out bullet and the neck tension alone is enough to hold it in place. I can even press in a transmission - no glue nor solder needed.

I don't believe that any customer ever notices, but I enjoy knowing that the cartridge portion of my pen is within factory spec and could be chambered.
 

rcarman

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Rifle chambers, like any maching operation, are subject to tolerances and variation. The chamber is also subject to barrel erosion from repeated firings. When fired, the casing will fireform to the shape of the chamber. I have seen extreme erosion where the casing would expand and split. 30 years of experience with firearms have shown me that sometimes there is much more variation even from firearms of the same manufacture. Cases fireformed in one rifle will not necessarily fit another without full case resizing and even then sometimes it is trouble.
 

Nightingale

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I have attempted to drill out the primer end of a used 30-06 casing with the spent primer in place and have had the drilled hole off center which may contribute to your problem. I now drill out the primer end of new casings with no primer and have no problems, on center every time.
 

TAld

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I can even press in a transmission - no glue nor solder needed.
Eric Would you please explain this a little more? I assume you mean you are drilling out the primer end and pressing in the tube and tranny there. I used this method on two pens, a 308 and a 30-06 and it worked great. On the third pen the tranny would not press in and collapsed!! I was using a 17/64 bit. I am now trying a "I" letter bit with a dab of Loctite Red. Any help appreciated.
 

Sylvanite

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Originally posted by Nightingale
<br />I have attempted to drill out the primer end of a used 30-06 casing with the spent primer in place and have had the drilled hole off center which may contribute to your problem. I now drill out the primer end of new casings with no primer and have no problems, on center every time.
Absolutely!

The firing pin is pretty much guaranteed to be off-center, so if you use that dimple as a drill guide, you will wind up with a nonconcentric hole. I always deprime before drilling.

The primer pocket is swaged in place with a die that is machined to pretty good tolerances. If you drill with that as a guide, you'll get a hole that is pretty close to center. I've seen several thousandth's variation though, so I still prefer to drill on the lathe starting with a center bit.
 

Sylvanite

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Originally posted by TAld
<br />
I can even press in a transmission - no glue nor solder needed.
Eric Would you please explain this a little more? I assume you mean you are drilling out the primer end and pressing in the tube and tranny there. I used this method on two pens, a 308 and a 30-06 and it worked great. On the third pen the tranny would not press in and collapsed!! I was using a 17/64 bit. I am now trying a "I" letter bit with a dab of Loctite Red. Any help appreciated.
I'm afraid I wasn't perfectly clear. I do glue the tube into the case. I tried press-fitting tubes, but don't have exactly the right drill bit for the job. The hole was about 0.003" diameter too small. The tube would fit fine, but the transmission was too snug.

What I meant to say was that by sizing the brass and seating the bullet with reloading equipment, the bullet is held firmly enough that I can press the transmission in later. The cartridge pen tutorials use fired unsized cases. The bullets are held in place either by glue or solder and are affixed after inserting the transmission.

The problem with glue is that it won't stand up to the heat of powder-coating (and may also break loose when pressing in a transmission). Soldering is very labor-intensive and the heat may discolor the brass.

Press-seating the bullet allows me to powder-coat the entire cartridge before gluing in the tube and pressing in the transmission.

I also like sizing the case before drilling, as that helps with concentricity. As I mentioned before, I can see the difference between a fired but unsized case and one that has been resized. A pen made from a resized case just looks more like a real cartridge to me.
 

TAld

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I tried press-fitting tubes, but don't have exactly the right drill bit for the job

Eric Thanks for the quick response! I've been in the shop all day and just came in. As I mentioned earlier I ran a test using the "I" (letter) bit. Results were good, The tube slides in by hand leaving plenty of room for the tranny with no fear of crushing it. I put a small bead of Loctite Red on the tube (sanded it to give some bite) and pushed it into the cap end (I left about 3/8" exposed for the final test) and let it sit overnight. This morning I put it on the arbor press and tried to press it through the casing to see how much holding power it had. Even though it only cured for about 11 or 12 hrs. It took a considerable amount of force to break it loose. I got four 30-06 casings powder coated and the tubes are in and curing, will complete tomorrow. By the way, when you look at the tube you can't even see a seam around it - it looks like a solid piece.
Hope this may help a little for those doing bullet pens using the bullet (metal jacket) as the nib. Also, for the bullet nib I use a #46 wire size bit which is a perfect fit for the Cross type refill.
 

JWRIGHTS

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Originally posted by Sylvanite
<br />
Originally posted by GaryMGg
<br />...the real culprit is that the tube isn't centered perfectly -- it's visibly off.
That's why I drill my cases (and bullets) on the lathe and use a center bit. This gives me a nice concentric hole. Now the biggest source of error comes from not centering the tube in the hole perfectly when gluing.

I also regularly turn my pens a couple thousandths proud of the mating hardware. Wood is going to swell and shrink a little anyway, with changes in temperature and humidity. A couple thousandths proud is not as noticable as a couple thousandths shy. With casing pens, I usually turn the mating piece with a rounded over or beveled edge. That tends to cover up small concentricity errors.
 

RollTide

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Although I have not completed a cartridge pen yet (waiting on an order to come in) I seem to have created my own method. I too used to have trouble with center drilling spent casings. What I did is set my drill press to it's max speed, use a high speed bit a little smaller than the used primer and two blocks as a sandwhich to hold the casing. I start just touching the primer and not even worrying about where the firing pin dimple is. I just keep eating away very slightly till I have spun the primer out. Most of the time after so much material has been removed the rest of the primer will spin out. Now you have a perfectly centered hole. I then step drill till I get the size hole I need. As far as tube instertion goes I use a 7mm tube and glue up a scrap piece of wood on it (usually cedar). I then turn that down to where it fits the bullet and firing ends snugly. With that the transmission and nib is assembled just like you would do normally. All this seems pretty tediuos but it seems to work. Like I've said before, I haven't completed a cartridge pen yet but I have been working on the casing prep quite a bit. Anyway, that's my two cents and considering how the Dow was down 361 points yesterday it's not two cents anymore.[:(!]

[:D]
 

Sylvanite

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Well, if I didn't have a reloading press, I'd drill a primer-sized hole in a piece of scrap wood, center the case (head down) on it, stick a decapping pin down the case mouth and knock the primer out with a hammer (and strangely enough, they sell kits to do exactly that).

If I didn't have a decapping pin, I'd glue a short brad on the end of a punch and use that.

But, you're right - there are several ways to drill an accurate hole in a fired case. In some instances (such as a Berdan-primed case), drilling out the primer may actually be the easiest.

Regards,
Eric
 
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