CA DEBONDING

[jcm71]

I just had a customer bring a pen back that I had sold his wife last year. The finish looked horrible, as it had completely lost its luster ( it was a CA finish). I told him I would gladly refinish it for him. As i was disassembling the pen, the tubes on both blanks came loose. Now I suspect he left the pen in the car in summer. Has anyone else had experience with this? Thanks.

 

[sbell111]

How do you prepare your tubes prior to gluing them in the blank? What type of glue do you use on the tubes?

 

[SteveJ]

I'm guessing he uses CA glue....

 

[sbell111]

I'm guessing he uses CA glue....

I'm guessing that he doesn't prepare the tubes in any way, but that's just a guess.

 

[jcm71]

I'm guessing he uses CA glue....

I'm guessing that he doesn't prepare the tubes in any way, but that's just a guess.

Actually I sand the tubes, use a small piece of craft foam to ensure thick CA completely covers the tube, and then slide the tube into the blank, twisting the blank as I go.

Should have included that info in the original post.

 

[sbell111]

When you took a look at the tube that had failed, did the glue come off the wood or the tube or does it look like there were areas without any glue?

How is your clearance between tube and blank? If the hole is drilled too small, you can basically squeegee the glue off the tube as you insert it. If the hole is too large, then there may be areas where the glue doesn't fill the void.

 

[edstreet]

I have seen this very same thing happen numerous times. I now put a very small amount of glue on the short fittings that is pressed in, they can still be knocked off with a punch but not so much with normal usage. I have also had pen parts break, esp around the nib when using dissimilar plating.

As for the finish luster that is also a common problem with carry pens. Truth be known is CA's rep is better than the material itself is. Frankly it's quite horrible when it comes to holding up to use/abuse.

Lets look at one 'debonder' for a minute. Acetone.

Acetone is produced and disposed of in the human body through normal metabolic processes. It is normally present in blood and urine. People with diabetes produce it in larger amounts.

Due to the higher energy requirements in pregnant women, nursing mothers and children, they have higher levels of acetone. Ketogenic diets that increase acetone in the body are used to reduce epileptic attacks in infants and children who suffer from recalcitrant refractory epilepsy.

Small amounts of acetone are produced in the body by the decarboxylation of ketone bodies. Certain dietary patterns, including prolonged fasting and high-fat low-carbohydrate dieting, can produce ketosis, in which acetone is formed in body tissue, and certain health conditions, such as alcoholism and diabetes, can produce ketoacidosis, uncontrollable ketosis that leads to a sharp, and potentially fatal, increase in the acidity of the blood. Since it is a byproduct of fermentation, acetone is a byproduct of the distillery industry.

Other things like nail polish remover is a common item that is used. It's not that hard for a carry pen to come into contact with these chemicals. If you want a much superior finish than CA then get some professionally stabilized wood and fine sand it.

 

[jcm71]

I have seen this very same thing happen numerous times. I now put a very small amount of glue on the short fittings that is pressed in, they can still be knocked off with a punch but not so much with normal usage. I have also had pen parts break, esp around the nib when using dissimilar plating.

As for the finish luster that is also a common problem with carry pens. Truth be known is CA's rep is better than the material itself is. Frankly it's quite horrible when it comes to holding up to use/abuse.

Lets look at one 'debonder' for a minute. Acetone.

Acetone is produced and disposed of in the human body through normal metabolic processes. It is normally present in blood and urine. People with diabetes produce it in larger amounts.

Due to the higher energy requirements in pregnant women, nursing mothers and children, they have higher levels of acetone. Ketogenic diets that increase acetone in the body are used to reduce epileptic attacks in infants and children who suffer from recalcitrant refractory epilepsy.

Small amounts of acetone are produced in the body by the decarboxylation of ketone bodies. Certain dietary patterns, including prolonged fasting and high-fat low-carbohydrate dieting, can produce ketosis, in which acetone is formed in body tissue, and certain health conditions, such as alcoholism and diabetes, can produce ketoacidosis, uncontrollable ketosis that leads to a sharp, and potentially fatal, increase in the acidity of the blood. Since it is a byproduct of fermentation, acetone is a byproduct of the distillery industry.

Other things like nail polish remover is a common item that is used. It's not that hard for a carry pen to come into contact with these chemicals. If you want a much superior finish than CA then get some professionally stabilized wood and fine sand it.

Thanks, Ed. Great explanation, and it does make sense. I do have to say that this is the only one of my pens that I have seen where the finish was so degraded. I saw another one of my products two weeks ago that I sold over 18 months ago. That finish looks brand new and the guy uses it daily.

I'm still wondering if exposing a pen to heat (leaving it in the car in summer, for example), would causes the problems I mentioned in my original post.

 

[IPD_Mr]

I'm still wondering if exposing a pen to heat (leaving it in the car in summer, for example), would causes the problems I mentioned in my original post.

I am sure it can have some of the same effect. CA will fail in the 165 degree range. Multiple hot cold exposures could easily account for the tube failing in the bond to the body. We switched to epoxy long ago, as it gave us a little more work time, a better bond and the ability to tint the glue with paint. As for the finish, it will expand and contract with the heat changes and it very well could start to look like what you are explaining.

Now, the big question.......What difference does it make. You are going to do the repairs, the customer will be happy and may even spread the word about your product and your service.

You might mention to the customer that it looks like what happens when a pen is left in a hot car and gently remind them that it is not good to leave them in a hot car. You should also give it back to the customer in something like a velvet sleeve and suggest a nice pen case to protect it further and as a holiday gift.

 

[CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI]

Happened to me on an antler Euro

John,

It happened to me on an antler Euro. I offered to re do it, customer told me his brother left it in his truck a lot with windows up. Here near Atlanta it gets really hot, they don't call it Hotlandta for nothing.

I know enough to use ventshades, and a window shade.

I now epoxy most tubes.

Charlie

 

[edstreet]

Thanks, Ed. Great explanation, and it does make sense. I do have to say that this is the only one of my pens that I have seen where the finish was so degraded. I saw another one of my products two weeks ago that I sold over 18 months ago. That finish looks brand new and the guy uses it daily.

I'm still wondering if exposing a pen to heat (leaving it in the car in summer, for example), would causes the problems I mentioned in my original post.

Well there was a HUGE glue post on one of the knife making forums. Many people sent in various epoxy/glue/etc for a destructive testing and the results were amazing. Long story short many/most glue will fail in the 150-300F range. What came as a shock to many was JB weld fails at 180F.

This is one of the test that I ran here, I am outside Columbus, GA and this temp reading was taken at15:00 on 5/4/2006. This meter was in a shade part of the car on the floorboard and not exposed to direct sunlight. I have left pens in the car before to see how they will hold up. One easy thing to check is the plating, look at it real close to see what they really were doing with it. If it is chemical, i.e. dirty hands then likely it will just affect the plastics, i.e. CA, than the plating, if it's abrasion wear the plating will be affected as well.

Long story short yes heat from cars CAN cause problems like that, I have seen cassette tapes MELT in vehicles.

 

[KDM]

I left a box of pens in the car in winter when we were en route to France for our Christmas holiday. I noticed 2 or three of them lost adhesion with their CA'd tubes.

 

[jcm71]

I'm still wondering if exposing a pen to heat (leaving it in the car in summer, for example), would causes the problems I mentioned in my original post.

I am sure it can have some of the same effect. CA will fail in the 165 degree range. Multiple hot cold exposures could easily account for the tube failing in the bond to the body. We switched to epoxy long ago, as it gave us a little more work time, a better bond and the ability to tint the glue with paint. As for the finish, it will expand and contract with the heat changes and it very well could start to look like what you are explaining.

Now, the big question.......What difference does it make. You are going to do the repairs, the customer will be happy and may even spread the word about your product and your service.

You might mention to the customer that it looks like what happens when a pen is left in a hot car and gently remind them that it is not good to leave them in a hot car. You should also give it back to the customer in something like a velvet sleeve and suggest a nice pen case to protect it further and as a holiday gift.

Mike,
Thanks very much for the input. I may very well switch to epoxy from here on out.
Like many of us here, I have a lifetime warranty on my workmanship. If a pen fails due to my error, I'll repair it or replace it gratis, no questions asked. HOWEVER, if the failure is due to abuse by the owner, that is another matter. I'll most likely redo this pen for free, but I am leery of setting a precedent for the "pen abusers" out there. I'm also going to include a warning on the back side of my business card. BTW I already include a velvet sleeve with every pen I sell, donate, or give as gifts, and this one will be in a sleeve once I complete the repairs. Thanks again.

John

 

[jcm71]

When you took a look at the tube that had failed, did the glue come off the wood or the tube or does it look like there were areas without any glue?

How is your clearance between tube and blank? If the hole is drilled too small, you can basically squeegee the glue off the tube as you insert it. If the hole is too large, then there may be areas where the glue doesn't fill the void.

Steve,
It looks like the glue came off of the tube. The clearance was good. The pen is a Big Ben Cigar, and the fit was just right, neither too tight or loose. Thanks for your response.

John

 

[sbell111]

Long story short yes heat from cars CAN cause problems like that, I have seen cassette tapes MELT in vehicles.

What is a cassette tape?

I don't think that anyone should be trying to tape the tubes in. That's just asking for problems.

 

[edstreet]

Long story short yes heat from cars CAN cause problems like that, I have seen cassette tapes MELT in vehicles.

What is a cassette tape?

I don't think that anyone should be trying to tape the tubes in. That's just asking for problems.

Uhm you know cassette tape players? the pre-cd media? the one that came after 8-track players?

 

[sbell111]

Do you really need a smiley to get the joke?

 

[mick]

Steve, I think he does.

 

[alamocdc]

Acetone is produced and disposed of in the human body through normal metabolic processes. It is normally present in blood and urine. People with diabetes produce it in larger amounts.

Due to the higher energy requirements in pregnant women, nursing mothers and children, they have higher levels of acetone. Ketogenic diets that increase acetone in the body are used to reduce epileptic attacks in infants and children who suffer from recalcitrant refractory epilepsy.

Small amounts of acetone are produced in the body by the decarboxylation of ketone bodies. Certain dietary patterns, including prolonged fasting and high-fat low-carbohydrate dieting, can produce ketosis, in which acetone is formed in body tissue, and certain health conditions, such as alcoholism and diabetes, can produce ketoacidosis, uncontrollable ketosis that leads to a sharp, and potentially fatal, increase in the acidity of the blood. Since it is a byproduct of fermentation, acetone is a byproduct of the distillery industry.

That certainly explains one experience I had with a pen in Cherry burl I sold some years ago. The customer brought it back to me after about 30 days. He ordered it for his wife and when I got it back, all of the CA was gone from the lower barrel and it was gray and dingy like it had never even had a finish on it. I refinished it in lacquer and last I heard it was still going strong.

Along those lines, this same thing could pose problems to pens finished with dissolved plexiglass. Very educational. Looks like I may just stick with lacquer if I'm not happy with WTF.

 

[edstreet]

Yup sure does explain many things. We should Tailor kits, blank and finish to the environment it will operate in. CA while fine for some situations is not good for every one

Do this setup a test by simulating a nail polish spill in a purse or table and see how long it takes to ruin that finish.

 

[sbell111]

While you are implementing impossible-to-pass tests, hit the pen with a sander for a few seconds to simulate life in the bottom of a purse with a nail file.