To Burl or not to Burl

[Woodpecker26]

Hey Everyone,

Not sure if this is the most appropriate place for this question, but here goes. Obviously burl and spalted wood makes for some of the most beautiful pens, though it often brings with it structural issues that can cause problems when turning. I see a lot of these stabilized, though I think that some burl is solid enough to not need it. Perhaps this is partly due to the type of wood, the amount of burl, etc... When I'm looking at these types of wood, is there a way to make an educated guess as to whether it needs to be stabilized or not? And then, if it needs to be, do I need to learn this myself or are there places that can assist?

Thanks

 

[Edward Cypher]

There are places and people here who stabalize, you can also do it and it does depend on the species of wood. Honduran Rosewood Burl HBR is usually very tight and hard but buckeye burl can be very soft and punky since buckeye is a softwood to begin with. I'm sure others will chime in very shortly!! Welcome from Colorado and enjoy the site it has a wealth of information.

 

[eranox]

Hey Everyone,

Not sure if this is the most appropriate place for this question, but here goes. Obviously burl and spalted wood makes for some of the most beautiful pens, though it often brings with it structural issues that can cause problems when turning. I see a lot of these stabilized, though I think that some burl is solid enough to not need it. Perhaps this is partly due to the type of wood, the amount of burl, etc... When I'm looking at these types of wood, is there a way to make an educated guess as to whether it needs to be stabilized or not? And then, if it needs to be, do I need to learn this myself or are there places that can assist?

Thanks

I bought a variety of low-cost practice blanks on Ebay to determine this very thing. Obviously, different woods behave differently, but I found there's rarely a need to stabilize if you take light cuts, keep your tools sharp, and pay attention. After some successes and some failures, I got a good feel for it. I can probably pull off 80-90% of unstabilized burl pens now. A little thin CA goes a long way!

You can stabilize at home. The process is easy, but the equipment isn't cheap. Check out Turn-Tex Woodworking online and in the vendor forums. Curtis has some great info.

Many IAPers are already set up to stabilize, and regularly help other members out with stabilizing, for a small fee. The same goes for casting: many members here do this, and if you need a few blanks, it is almost certainly more cost efficient to enlist their help than to purchase all the supplies.

 

[Hendu3270]

I sort of stabilize as I go with thin CA.

 

[shortz1lla]

[QUOTEBuckeyerd Cypher;1646607] ...can be very soft and punky since buckeye is a softwood to begin with.[/QUOTE]
While Buckeye is, typically, soft and punky, it is actually a hardwood.
OP, every burl will be different... even from the same species and, often, the same tree. I recently harvested a Black Oak with several burls, each exhibits wildly different character. This is probably not the answer you wanted to hear but in my experience, you can't know for sure until you're holding the piece. The upside is that there are various avenues for successful stabilization: you could buy a professional system, send it off to be stabilized, do a thin CA bath and finish, or a homebrew stabilization chamber. Have a look on youtube for the brake bleeder wood stabilizing system, may not be ideal if you're looking to do a load of blanks but should suffice. Good luck!
Joe

 

[Jim Burr]

I stabilize most burls. Not because they are soft or punky, but because of the random grain structure. I have a large tank from Curtis and it work great! CA isn't stabilization...it's glue.

 

[shortz1lla]

Hmm, stabilization is not a product, it's a method of enhancing the strength and resistance to movement of wood... thin CA can accomplish this task, thus it can be considered a stabilizer. Being argumentative for the sake of such doesn't preclude logic.

 

[kovalcik]

While having the wood stabilized in the conventional sense (via chamber, vacuum, and juice) may be preferred I have been able to turn some very iffy pieces using Minwax wood hardener and CA to stabilize the blank enough to have it hold together. Did a beautiful bowl using this method.

The other factor that noone has mentioned yet is to make sure your tools are very sharp, keep sharpening them as you go, and make light cuts. I have done many burls without any stabilization in this way.

 

[BSea]

I stabilize most burls. Not because they are soft or punky, but because of the random grain structure. I have a large tank from Curtis and it work great! CA isn't stabilization...it's glue.

I kinda agree with you. CA is not stabilization of the whole blank, but for punky wood, thin CA can be used to stabilize a layer of the wood, and needs to be reapplied often. And for those without a vacuum chamber, and only a few blanks, it's a viable option to getting a high quality burled or spalted pen.

Back to the question. As others have stated, it really depends on the species of burl, and the degree of spalting. I've turned amboyna burl without a problem, but spalted pecan is almost always a candidate for stabilizing, or liberal CA to make sure it stays together.

Here are some of the burls I've done without stabilizing:

Red Mallee Burl
Brown Mallee Burl
York Gum Burl
Coolabah Burl
Corregatta Burl
Black Ash Burl
Desert Iron Wood Burl
Afzalia Burl
Amboyna Burl
Mesquite Burl
Box Elder Burl

There are many more, so don't exclude non stabilized burls for wood turning.

Hope this helps

 

[plantman]

I stabilize most burls. Not because they are soft or punky, but because of the random grain structure. I have a large tank from Curtis and it work great! CA isn't stabilization...it's glue.

Ca is stabilization!!! It is chemical reaction that bonds two surfaces together to make one stable unit. CA is a fast reaction adheasive (glue). CA is not a product name called "stabilizor". Again, the practice of stabilizing wood, with vaccum or pressure, is the replacing of air in the cells of a material with any substance that will harden, no matter what that substance is!!! Curtis has the ideal product for this operation. Min-Wax Wood Hardner will also work, but is very volatile and the fumes are hazardus to your health. Downside of these products is they both need vaccum equipment to do the best job. If you are only going to do a few blanks, or are just starting out, you my not want to put out that much money to start until you find out if you like it, or it is cost effective. You only need to secure the last 1/32" of your blank, so CA will work just fine. Turn your burl round and soak with thin CA. Every couple of passes stop the lathe and recoat. I have been making pens for about 20 years, and this is the first year I have used vaccum to stabilize some end grain blanks and realy punky woods. Many times you will have blanks that have cracks or holes in them that can't be filled with stabilizor, only CA or Epoxy along with some filler will filll these holes and give you a useful blank to work with. Jim S

 

[Jim Burr]

I guess by that logic, Cactus juice is glue? CJ is not meant to fill holes, it has, to my knowledge never been advertised as such. You have my by about 7 years Jim, but I'd wager that we both have a good handle on pen making.

 

[Jim Burr]

I stabilize most burls. Not because they are soft or punky, but because of the random grain structure. I have a large tank from Curtis and it work great! CA isn't stabilization...it's glue.

I kinda agree with you. CA is not stabilization of the whole blank, but for punky wood, thin CA can be used to stabilize a layer of the wood, and needs to be reapplied often. And for those without a vacuum chamber, and only a few blanks, it's a viable option to getting a high quality burled or spalted pen.

I do you CA all the time to fill voids with a filler; espresso powder, turquoise, coral...what have you. If I get into a blank and find a soft spot, sure...CA that sucker...but I'm not going to pull off the blank and run it through stabilizer!

 

[plantman]

I guess by that logic, Cactus juice is glue? CJ is not meant to fill holes, it has, to my knowledge never been advertised as such. You have my by about 7 years Jim, but I'd wager that we both have a good handle on pen making.

I'm not seeing your logic. I said CA was a stabilizor as well as a glue and Cactus Juice is a stabilizor not a glue, and needs vaccum to work properly. If you look on the bottles of thick CA it is called "gap filling". Are you telling me that in 13 years you have never used CA to fill in small holes, dents, or cracks in your blanks?? I have no question of your ability as a pen maker and respect your opinions, but you are not using the word "stabilization" in the correct or broad form, and it makes newcomers think that CA can not be used for this purpose. I think you and I sometimes forget that we have been doing this for quite a number of years, and have most of the bells, whistles, and knowledge of pen making that the new people have not yet aquired. Pease!! Jim S

 

[rblakemore]

Help me on this!!

I was just about to ask a similar question and this works!
I just tried a piece of orange dyed maple burl; basically the fist burl that I have worked. Practice because I want to do more soon. As I was turning down the blank and near final size, I noticed several voids and a long crack in the burl. Hearing that there is such a thing as a CA finish, I coated both blanks (two piece pen) in CA (loved the look, brought out the burl). When I smoothed the CA some of it seemed to come off and leave a film on the burl. What do I do? Does this mean that I make a number of passes with CA (not just one?) and not work the glue finish as hard? What is the difference between CA glue and CA finish? I am about to purchase amboyna and afzelia and want a little more practice first.

 

[Jim Burr]

I'm not seeing your logic. I said CA was a stabilizor as well as a glue and Cactus Juice is a stabilizor not a glue, and needs vaccum to work properly. If you look on the bottles of thick CA it is called "gap filling". Are you telling me that in 13 years you have never used CA to fill in small holes, dents, or cracks in your blanks?? I have no question of your ability as a pen maker and respect your opinions, but you are not using the word "stabilization" in the correct or broad form, and it makes newcomers think that CA can not be used for this purpose. I think you and I sometimes forget that we have been doing this for quite a number of years, and have most of the bells, whistles, and knowledge of pen making that the new people have not yet aquired. Pease!! Jim S

Oh I sure do!! I think Sunday was the latest time to add some Pearl-ex to some Buckeye burl voids. Bells, whistles and knowledge we have sir!!
One thing neither of us has mentioned yet and we've both run across is that CA will darken the area where it's applied. That may not always be a desired outcome...but there are ways around that too!

 

[BSea]

I stabilize most burls. Not because they are soft or punky, but because of the random grain structure. I have a large tank from Curtis and it work great! CA isn't stabilization...it's glue.

I kinda agree with you. CA is not stabilization of the whole blank, but for punky wood, thin CA can be used to stabilize a layer of the wood, and needs to be reapplied often. And for those without a vacuum chamber, and only a few blanks, it's a viable option to getting a high quality burled or spalted pen.

I do you CA all the time to fill voids with a filler; espresso powder, turquoise, coral...what have you. If I get into a blank and find a soft spot, sure...CA that sucker...but I'm not going to pull off the blank and run it through stabilizer!

I'm not suggesting a blank has to be removed to coat it with CA. I just use thin CA like I'm applying finish, but only a little more liberally. It soaks through the outer layer of the wood to keep the blank together. I'm not worried about a finish at this point. And this is completely different than filling voids.

After I apply the CA, I'll give it 3 or 4 minutes to be sure it's fully dry, then turn off some more. No it's not as fast as turning a fully stabilized blank, but it will work just fine.

 

[plantman]

I'm not seeing your logic. I said CA was a stabilizor as well as a glue and Cactus Juice is a stabilizor not a glue, and needs vaccum to work properly. If you look on the bottles of thick CA it is called "gap filling". Are you telling me that in 13 years you have never used CA to fill in small holes, dents, or cracks in your blanks?? I have no question of your ability as a pen maker and respect your opinions, but you are not using the word "stabilization" in the correct or broad form, and it makes newcomers think that CA can not be used for this purpose. I think you and I sometimes forget that we have been doing this for quite a number of years, and have most of the bells, whistles, and knowledge of pen making that the new people have not yet aquired. Pease!! Jim S

Oh I sure do!! I think Sunday was the latest time to add some Pearl-ex to some Buckeye burl voids. Bells, whistles and knowledge we have sir!!
One thing neither of us has mentioned yet and we've both run across is that CA will darken the area where it's applied. That may not always be a desired outcome...but there are ways around that too!

So will water or almost any other finish you apply for that matter!! What does that have to do with stabilizing a burl, which was the origenal question. I have been down this tunnel before, and see no light at the end, just a dead horse of which I have no intension of beating. Have a nice day!! Jim S

 

[plantman]

I stabilize most burls. Not because they are soft or punky, but because of the random grain structure. I have a large tank from Curtis and it work great! CA isn't stabilization...it's glue.

I kinda agree with you. CA is not stabilization of the whole blank, but for punky wood, thin CA can be used to stabilize a layer of the wood, and needs to be reapplied often. And for those without a vacuum chamber, and only a few blanks, it's a viable option to getting a high quality burled or spalted pen.

I do you CA all the time to fill voids with a filler; espresso powder, turquoise, coral...what have you. If I get into a blank and find a soft spot, sure...CA that sucker...but I'm not going to pull off the blank and run it through stabilizer!

I'm not suggesting a blank has to be removed to coat it with CA. I just use thin CA like I'm applying finish, but only a little more liberally. It soaks through the outer layer of the wood to keep the blank together. I'm not worried about a finish at this point. And this is completely different than filling voids.

After I apply the CA, I'll give it 3 or 4 minutes to be sure it's fully dry, then turn off some more. No it's not as fast as turning a fully stabilized blank, but it will work just fine.

Bob: I agree with you. Did you suggest pulling the blank off the lathe to stabilize it, I know I didn't. And I don't think it would do any good to stabilize it once you have coated it with CA. The pores will be sealed and no air can be replaced. Keep doing it the way you are, it will work just fine. The dictionary defines "void" a noun- meaning an empty space. How does this differ from a hole, dent, or crack?? Just asking your opinion. Jim S

 

[plantman]

Hey Everyone,

Not sure if this is the most appropriate place for this question, but here goes. Obviously burl and spalted wood makes for some of the most beautiful pens, though it often brings with it structural issues that can cause problems when turning. I see a lot of these stabilized, though I think that some burl is solid enough to not need it. Perhaps this is partly due to the type of wood, the amount of burl, etc... When I'm looking at these types of wood, is there a way to make an educated guess as to whether it needs to be stabilized or not? And then, if it needs to be, do I need to learn this myself or are there places that can assist?

Thanks

Sorry to get sidetracked on your thread, but I can't go along with slanted untrue information. As to your original question, there is no set rule as to if you should stabilize a blank or just use Thin CA. Look at the burl, is there are any cracks, worm holes, or soft spots that you can see. Take an air hose or, if it is a large burl, pressure wash it. Burls may often contain sand, small stones, or loose fibers that should be removed first. Let dry. Most burls have grain that moves in many directions and could leed to unseen voids or pockets inside. Most purchased burl blanks are solid blanks with no problems. Blanks from private sources may be a buyer be ware type of transaction. Good sellers will post photos of numbered blanks, and you can choose what you want to buy. Now that I have a vaccum system, I would suggest stabilizing any blank that has spalting, cracks, or soft wood. I also stabilize end grain cuts, it just takes to much CA to make them safely turnable without fear of flying apart. Look in the library on this site or on youtube for videos on how stabilizing is done and what procedures and products are used . Any other questions, just ask. Jim S