Boy am I TICKED!!

[MDWine]

I just drilled blanks for a Gentlemens pen from CS.
The instructions called for a 15/32 for the small tube.
When I dry fit the tube, I discovered it is very loose!

I checked the bit three times, and even tested the tube in 29/64, which fit better, but is still not quite right.

Now, sitting behind the computer it occurs to me that maybe the tubes (extra set ordered with the kits) may be wrong?

I triple checked the instructions, and even looked on the CSUSA site, the instructions there call for 15/32 as well...

I'm gonna go back to the shop and check the extra tubes against the tubes from the kit, but I'm thinkin' something is very wrong.

A real pity too, the wood I drilled was a special piece from a friend for his own personal board, and now the blanks are trash.

Any thoughts?

 

[Rmartin]

When did you buy the kits? They have had a bit size change listed on their site for quite some time. 10.5 and 12.5 being the new sizes. And they have posted here to replace bits for free to anyone who bought before the change. I wouldn't say the blank is trash, it's posible to drill a scrap piece, glue it up, turn it to fit/glue inside the blank you've drilled. A lot of extra work sure, but hey, this isn't Gieko.com, and pen turning isn't so easy a caveman could do it.

 

[mrcook4570]

Originally posted by Rmartin
<br />They have had a bit size change listed on their site for quite some time. 10.5 and 12.5 being the new sizes.

That is for the Jr Gent 2. I've made quite a few of the full size gents and the 15/32" drill works fine for the lower tube. Any chance that you have some run out with that bit?

Use poly glue and it probably won't matter as there is quite a bit of meat left on a gent, except at the endcap end - there you may want to oops band it and drill smaller through that end.

One other thought - if the wood is not completely dry, nuke it and the hole may shrink.

 

[Rmartin]

Oh sorry, I saw the gent and thought of the Jr. gents and it's issues. I'm afraid I haven't made any of the gentlemans pens.

This suggestion might not help at the moment, but it's something to consider for future problems. When I was learning to make shell casing pens, I bought a selection of brass tubes. Each one fits inside the next.

 

[LostintheWoods]

Nuke it and the wood shrinks, which will effectively expand the hole! As you said, though, poly glue (gorilla, sumo) will fill the gap, as will epoxy. After all, you're talking a very small measurement, and either glue will get you out of trouble.

 

[JimGo]

Sorry to hear about the problem. I never (at least intentionally) use the recommended bit. I mic the tubes and use the bit that is the best fit. How sloppy is the fit? Gorilla glue and epoxy are both good suggestions. When you position the tube in the hole, is there a gap that's so big as to make the the blank unusable?

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by MDWine
<br />.....Any thoughts?

Yeah, Mikael......CSUSA has the same type of problem they had with the bit recommendation for the Jr. Gent and I'm surprised that more folks haven't raised the roof about it!!

Ever since I started gathering information for the Pen Reference Chart, I have been aware of an anomaly with the recommendation for the Gent/Statesman lower tube. With the information I have assembled so far, bit recommendations generally seem to range from 0.006" to 0.011" larger than the measured tube OD. In the case of the Gent. the CSUSA recommendation is 0.019" oversized......a bit more that what might seem to be reasonable to most folks?? Unfortunately, Gent builders are in a bit(intended) of a quandary as the only close alternative is the 29/64" bit that Mikael has already tried. Sadly, that bit is only 0.003" oversized and probably much too tight to be a good choice and an 11.5mm bit is even a hair tighter. The best choice would be either an 11.6mm bit which would be 0.0066" oversized or an 11.7mm bit which would be 0.0106" oversized; but neither of those sizes is available without some effort.

I would suggest you holler, loudly, at CSUSA and I intend to alert Eric to this issue and see what he has to say.

 

[clewless]

Mike,
I recently got a Gentlemans BP pen kit with the wrong tubes...fortunately it looked bad to me so I checked before going ahead.

They were promptly replaced when I called.

 

[Blind_Squirrel]

I recently ordered some Jr. Gent and Jr. Statesman pen kits. Some of the smaller (bottom) tubes in the kits are the wrong size. They are smaller in diameter than the bushing. I suspect that they are cigar tubes.

I did not discover the mistake until after I had glued one of them into an ambonya burl blank []

 

[Mikey]

I have made quite a few Gent and Statesman pens and used the recommended drill sizes each time. The only thing I can think of is the tubes are either the wrong size (easy to check using the bushings) or the Dp you are using has some runout, which would cause a larger hole.

I do have some experience with cheap bits. I bought the HF set for like $20 that has the 29 bits. Each time I would drill anything in a larger size than like the 15/32 bit my DP would shake a little and I thought the motor was a POS. I would also get larger holes than I thought I should be getting. Recently I bought some drill bits from Berea Hardwoods and they run true and smooth and my drill press doesn't shake when using them. I notice the holes are more accurate as well and the tubes fit much better.

 

[Rifleman1776]

This is a puzzling situation. I believe those of us here who buy from CS and make Gents and Jr. Gents should measure all tubes and compare against instructions and reccomended bits. If CS is shipping incorrect tube sizes they need to be chastized and corrections demanded. If that is not the case, those with problems need to investigate further to find the problem source. This is not the first thread with almost identical comments and problems. As for the drill press shaking with certain drill bits. I say toss the bits or return to Harbor Freight. I have their brad point set and have encountered no problems. Fine drills IMHO.

 

[MDWine]

More information...
Thanks for all of the replies. I checked the tubes against the bushings, and they're correct. My DP checks out just fine, no other anomolies concerning other drilling operations. I actually tested the "hole" on my Shopsmith in a test piece, the holes are the same.

The bit came from CSUSA, it appears to run true. I mic'd several holes and they're drilling 15/32! I also compared it to anothe bit I have (Black&Decker) and they match as closely as I can determine. As Randy mentioned, the measurements don't "jive".

I'm going to email CSUSA and see what they say.

I decided to glue'm up. We'll see how they turn, but I will definitely pay more attention to the instructions and double check the measurements on new kits from now on!!

 

[Blind_Squirrel]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />This is a puzzling situation. I believe those of us here who buy from CS and make Gents and Jr. Gents should measure all tubes and compare against instructions and reccomended bits. If CS is shipping incorrect tube sizes they need to be chastized and corrections demanded. If that is not the case, those with problems need to investigate further to find the problem source. This is not the first thread with almost identical comments and problems. As for the drill press shaking with certain drill bits. I say toss the bits or return to Harbor Freight. I have their brad point set and have encountered no problems. Fine drills IMHO.

I e-mailed CS; they responded promplty. Replacement tubes are on the way.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by MDWine
<br />.....As Randy mentioned, the measurements don't "jive".....

Don't think I mentioned this in my earlier post; but for whatever it is worth, the data I have says the lower tube of the Gent/Statesman has an OD of 0.450" and a 15/32 drill bit is 0.4688" in dia. or 0.0188" oversized.

 

[Mikey]

Here's a little hint. If the drill bit makes oversize holes and you are drilling acrylic, heat the blank well with a hairdryer before you drill. the heat expands the blank and when it cools back down, the hole will be smaller.

I do this when I am painting the tbubes and blanks and the fit is too snug for comfort. I heat the blank and quickly glue the tube in place. With the blank heated, the glued tube slides in easily.

 

[MDWine]

Gent/Statesman has an OD of 0.450" and a 15/32 drill bit is 0.4688" in dia. or 0.0188" oversized.

Wow, that doesn't seem like much, I'll have to mic the bit I guess. The tube was "visibly sloppy", I could see quite a gap between the tube and the wall of the blank. Interesting!

 

[Blind_Squirrel]

This begs the question: What is the optimal clearance for a tube/hole? You need enough room to get the glue in, but not so much as to make the tube sloppy in the hole.

 

[gerryr]

I have a chart of my own making next to my DP that lists the kit and the drill bits I use for them. Sometimes I use the size recommended but mostly I don't. I try to find a bit that is 0.004-0.010" larger than the tube. When I can't do that, I use the smallest possible bit that still allows me get the tube in. If I'm going to be painting the tube, I try to use a bit that's about 0.010-0.015" larger.

 

[JimGo]

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />...When I can't do that, I use the smallest possible bit that still allows me get the tube in.

When the clearance is really close, I've even wrapped a piece of sand paper around a transfer punch and opened up the hole a little, just to avoid using the next size up drill bit.

 

[Blind_Squirrel]

Gerry,
So, averaging your range, I want to shoot for non-painted = .006 painted = .012, correct? Sound good to everyone else?

 

[CaptG]

I got in the habit of measuring the tubes, then picking a drill .006-.010 bigger than the tube to drill the blank with. But as Randy pointed out, the next biggest drill for the Gent is way too big. I use a 29/64 drill and then a .458 reamer that I got from MSC. They have a reamer section that goes in steps of .001 for the most part. Solved the problem for me.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by Blind_Squirrel
<br />This begs the question: What is the optimal clearance for a tube/hole? You need enough room to get the glue in, but not so much as to make the tube sloppy in the hole.

Just a "seat-of-the-pants" suggestion. I'm thinking you could use tighter clearance for thin CA and a little looser fit for polyurethane and epoxy and holding that 6-10 thousandths clearance for bare tubes seems to be the norm. You might want to experiment a little to see what works best for you.

Some time ago I asked a similar question based on my remembrance of seeing information about the optimal joint gap for different types of glue. I got pretty well reamed out as being too picky and never did find and glue joint gap information after doing a quick Internet search. Maybe it would be a useful exercise for me to email a few glue manufacturers and see what they have to say about optimal joint gaps for their products??