Blank Stabalization process

[jehharris]

I am fascinated with stabalized blanks! I love turning them and have tried a few methods at home. I am interested in the true process and where I can find information on how the pros do it. I have performed several searches for this and have found little to no information. On the forums it is either taboo or a great mystery. **It's very expensive**too much equipment**dangerous**etc... I guess that's all relative. I have access to cash and as an engineer I love to figure things out. I want to do this for fun and possibly on a small scale. I have access to several local mills and am always being given or buying burls and wood that definitely could be stabalized. I use CA but that is time consuming. I think it would be nicer for me to do a batch at a time. I know several peopel that would have someone local do this for them if there was a local source for the process.

I have a general concept but just cannot find anything concrete. Is there anyone out there willing to share their knowledge or point me in the correct direction? I am interested in the resins, plastics, ploymers, etc that are used and their pros/cons. (I assume that there are several. I have turned many and I can tell a distinct difference in smell from some suppliers to the next). I am also interested in equipment, process, parameters, etc...

I really appreciate any help you may be in sharing your knowledge and experience.

Bless,

Jim

 

[pastorbill1952]

Jim, go to the articles using the link fromt he homepage and look for STABILIZING WITH POLYURETHANE: Lee Biggers. Think this will get you started. Also use the search link for stabilizing and be sure to check the archive box. Enjoy

 

[wdcav1952]

Jim,

As PastorBill told you, you can find information on home stabilization. The information on how professionals do it is pretty closely guarded, for obvious reasons. If you try any of the methods that recommend heat and pressure, invest in a full face mask.

 

[Dario]

WELCOME!!!

Can't help you...as William said, the process is a trade secret. Probably not too difficult to crack it if you are willing to invest on the equipment (vacuum/pressure/high temperature capable vessel)

Good luck!!!

 

[DCBluesman]

Actually, most of it is not a trade secret. The US Government Printing Office has reams of information on stabilizing processes which have formed the basics for all of the commercial stabilizers. With your background and access to cash, try this link as a start. It's technical and detailed, but you can find lots of references in the work as well as the names of others who have worked the problem. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn243.pdf

 

[redfishsc]

Question about using polyurethane. Can the pen be finished with lacquer when it's been stabilized with polyurethane? The two are not compatible when used as a film finish, but I'm not sure how it would work when the poly is impregnated in the wood.

 

[jehharris]

Thanks for the information so far. Maybe I was using the wrong search terms. I have a little more information or some hints to point me in the correct direction. I never thought of checking the government.

---"The information on how professionals do it is pretty closely guarded, for obvious reasons." "It's a trade secret"---

I do not know why this has always bothered me. I am not saying these statements are incorrect. They are probably very true. I guess I view it as just slightly wrong minded. There are tens of thousands of turners and pen artists. I think it is the same as the great crafters who share their art with us with pictures, steps and information. They do not feel threatened by the fact that hundreds (even thousnads) will see their work and try to duplicate it. Some of the people on these forums even craft the same style pens and, gasp, sell them after basing off of ideas garnered from others. That is the same as some of the engravers I have seen on the forums and net. They do not hide the techniques or even the model numbers of the lasers they use. They even advertise it. We (crafters/artists) even share advertising, pricing, and other business like information. Its even debated. I view this the same way. There are millions of board feet used by us each year. How is sharing the commercial stabalization process going to actually hurt or impact the person doing it commercially or for a living? It's not. There is plenty of wood and wood customers to go around. Besides, I am not looking to spend tens of thousands of dollars, go through the hassle of setting up shop, getting business licenses, and building commercial traffic. I have access to cash, yes. But it takes alot more than money to be a threat to any other business person (like being in business yourself). And access to cash does not mean limitless or even that I want to crack the nest egg. I wanted to simply learn the scientific/engineering way of processing the wood. Home brews are nice, but there is something to be said for doing something better or on a professional level. That is why most of us use the forums.

I will continue my research and try to build my knowledge. I am in no way knocking the methods provided on these forums. I have tried some them and like them. Maybe many of the people on the net who do this and sell you wood are doing nothing more than experimenting and using these techniques. I do not know. I am just trying to understand and provide a system with quality, consistency, and reliability for my friends and others who may be interested. I thought maybe there was a commercial product by 3M or others may be available.

A real business opportunity would be for the netprenuer who figures all of this out and publishes a book or ebook for sale. If I am interested and willing to buy, I am sure there are many who would too.

Thanks! Like I said, I appreciate your help and knowledge. I am learning more everyday from my peers and mentors on these forums.

Blessings,

Jim

 

[joeatact]

I use poly in a home made vacuum jar. I have a picture on my web site of the setup I use, but after sanding down to 1200 grit I use the buffing wheel and the finish shines right up. May not even need much more finish. Buffed finish seemed hard an glossy and I have left them that way. May also depend on wood type. I usually use ca as a finish.

 

[jehharris]

There was a great suggestion to try the Forestry Service Labs from DCBluesman. That got me started. I contacted the department and received back a the following response. (There is a ton of information there for the asking. Maybe not all the answers or the exact answers I was seeking but for sure a help. The information provided centers around PEG, not what I would refer to as "stabilized". But it is still very interesting and educational. Here is a copy of the mail with links:

Dear Mr. Harris,
Thank you for your email inquiry! Below you will find some technical information about a process called PEG (poyethylene glycol)... it is a treatment that stabilizes green wood and is used by wood workers/turners quite often. We have a packet of information on this process, if you would like us to mail this packet out to you, please let us know. Thank you! Sincerely, Sandy Morgan

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr55.pdf (Treatments that Enhance Physical Properties of Wood)

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm (Wood Handbook, Wood as an Engineering Material -- Chapter 19, page-10 "Wood Treated with Polyethylene Glycol [PEG])

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/agib666/agib666.htm (Income
Opportunities in Special Forest Products--Self Help Suggestions for Rural
Entrepreneurs) -- Chapter 7 "Decorative Wood" --- burls, etc.

Mr. Harris,
Below you will find another link to a publication that you might find quite helpful.... if you need anything further, please feel free to contact us! Sincerely, Sandy Morgan

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1972/mitch72a.pdf (How PEG Helps the Hobbyist Who Works With Wood)



Sandra Morgan
Forest Products Laboratory
Madison, WI 53726
phone: 608-231-9314
email: slmorgan@fs.fed.us
website: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/

 

[pen-turners]

I have some friends that are having very good luck with a product. They are using it to stabilize knife scales. It is called CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer) and can be bought from the link below. I have not tried it but I have turned a couple of pens out of Buckeye Burl treated with it and they were hard all the way to the center and were very easy to finish. Just something to check out.

www.rotdoctor.com


Hope this helps. I would order some, but it costs too much to send to Hawaii because it is hazerdous material handling.

Chris

 

[terrymiller]

I did some research last night on the Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer and found one site that was comparing different brands. Their conclusion was that the penetration was no better with the pre-made stuff than making your own. They showed results and said the best thinner solution to use was Xenyl available at most home stores. I have some fishing rod epoxy that I was going to try. My only question is it is two part epoxy and was wandering if that would work. Are all epoxies two part. Here is a link

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/penetrating4u.html

 

[redfishsc]

My understanding is that all epoxies are two part, I've seen three and four part (some have a proprietary thinner). Otherwise they'd just be a "resin" or glue.


Has anyone experimented with fiberglass resin?

 

[punkinn]

I read the article by Lee Biggers and have a question for anyone who cares to respond (emailed Lee but no response yet). Do I leave the vacuum running for the full 24 hours that the blanks are left in the polyurethane, or only until they are submerged in it (which I assume means all the air has been removed from the wood)?

Thanks,
Nancy

 

[MesquiteMan]

I have been experimenting with various home "hardening" methods and will soon be doing a review and article that I will share here and on vaious other turning sites. One method I have had great success with is System Three epoxy thinned with alcohol. I mix up my epoxy and add enough alcohol to get it the consistenty of real maple syrup. I then drench the blanks with the epoxy mix until it will not longer absorb. Let it sit for 2 days to cure (adding alcohol increases cure time) and then turn. I did one pen blank where I added a little red Transtint dye so I could evaluate the penetration and it was 100% complete. Once cured, the blank turned like plastic with big, long, curlies. I have got a number of product I will also be testing but this method seems to be the easiest and best so far. You don't need a vacuum system either. I have also used this method to strengthen badly punky wood bowls and vases. On them, I turn a little oversized and then saturate with the mix using a paintrbush. I then finish the turning and it make the wood hard and turnable without tear-out.

 

[thetalbott4]

Nancy - Usually you have a valve inline between the vac source and the container. When you reach the desired level of vacuum, you simply close the valve and disconnect the vacuum. This keeps air from entering the container and holds the vacuum.

 

[punkinn]

Thanks Scott............. I'm expecting my valve, gauge and other incidentals today, even found a pickle jar (full of pickles though). Report on results as soon as the pickles are gone! []

Nancy

 

[Glass Scratcher]

Originally posted by MesquiteMan
<br />I have been experimenting with various home "hardening" methods and will soon be doing a review and article that I will share here and on vaious other turning sites. One method I have had great success with is System Three epoxy thinned with alcohol. I mix up my epoxy and add enough alcohol to get it the consistenty of real maple syrup. I then drench the blanks with the epoxy mix until it will not longer absorb. Let it sit for 2 days to cure (adding alcohol increases cure time) and then turn. I did one pen blank where I added a little red Transtint dye so I could evaluate the penetration and it was 100% complete. Once cured, the blank turned like plastic with big, long, curlies.

Curtis,

Don't make us wait too long for your reviews. I have plenty of Magnolia, Bay, Oak and some wonder wood, that may end up as part of the mulch pile before too long. All could use some stabilization.

.

 

[TomServo]

The epoxy method sounds good - using thinned PR is probably very close to the commercial method. I like the idea of coloring your own blanks. Epoxy is probably pretty pricey - a finish type epoxy may work well also. ie Behr build 50, west system w 207 hardener, or the 1:1 types

Most of the commercial processes mention "heat and pressure" so it may be a thermoset resin that's vacuum'd free of air and then pressure molded in. Acrylic comes to mind. Color would be easy to add, and penetration would be good - at 200-400psi, it should be.

I read about a new method of "stabilizing" that actually impregnated the wood with "glass" - making it impervious to rot and insects.. Glass as in silica. There was a blurb in popular science or mechanics but I can't remember the name of the stuff.

 

[terrymiller]

There is some epoxies that may be a little cheaper used as fishing rod finishes. Several places sell them Muddhole custom tackle and Jann's NetCraft just a couple off hand.

 

[rkj155]

Originally posted by jehharris
<br />I am fascinated with stabalized blanks! I love turning them and have tried a few methods at home. I am interested in the true process and where I can find information on how the pros do it. I have performed several searches for this and have found little to no information. On the forums it is either taboo or a great mystery. **It's very expensive**too much equipment**dangerous**etc... I guess that's all relative. I have access to cash and as an engineer I love to figure things out. I want to do this for fun and possibly on a small scale. I have access to several local mills and am always being given or buying burls and wood that definitely could be stabalized. I use CA but that is time consuming. I think it would be nicer for me to do a batch at a time. I know several peopel that would have someone local do this for them if there was a local source for the process.

I have a general concept but just cannot find anything concrete. Is there anyone out there willing to share their knowledge or point me in the correct direction? I am interested in the resins, plastics, ploymers, etc that are used and their pros/cons. (I assume that there are several. I have turned many and I can tell a distinct difference in smell from some suppliers to the next). I am also interested in equipment, process, parameters, etc...

I really appreciate any help you may be in sharing your knowledge and experience.

Bless,

Jim

 

[davidrei]

Nancy,

Where did you get all your valves, fittings, guage etc.? I've been meaning to get a vacuum set up, but all the stuff I've read has been a little vague on details of the equipment. I don't want to waste money guessing on buying the right stuff, so a parts list would be greatly appreciated

 

[wudwrkr]

Dave, Great question. I've been wondering about that myself.

 

[punkinn]

Originally posted by davidrei
<br />Nancy,

Where did you get all your valves, fittings, guage etc.? I've been meaning to get a vacuum set up, but all the stuff I've read has been a little vague on details of the equipment. I don't want to waste money guessing on buying the right stuff, so a parts list would be greatly appreciated

Well, my BF (boyfriend) put it together for me, and he already had a vacuum setup for doing veneers, but this is what and where he got the parts for the jar:

1 gallon jar of pickles, Costco, sans pickles.
1 peanut butter jar (also empty!)that fits through the mouth of the pickle jar.
Stabilizing goo of your choice. I tried polyurethane and then tried the Minwax Wood Hardener which I liked the results from MUCH better.

Vacuum stuff:

Source:
http://www.joewoodworker.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=60

(1) Brass Vacuum Clamp Fitting - 1/4 NPT For Vacuum Clamping
(1) Forged Brass Tee 3-Way Splitter - 1/4" NPT Female
(1) Vacuum Valve (Inline) 1/4" NPT
(1) Vacuum Gauge
(1) Brass Pipe 2 inch - 1/4" NPT

However, this isn't a totally complete list. This will get you the parts above the lid. He still needed to drill a hole in the lid and somehow connect these parts through that hole. He went to OSH (local hardware store) and cobbled together the extra parts for that.

Is this good, or is more info needed?

Nancy

 

[davidrei]

Nancy,

Thanks, this is excellent! Thanks for taking the time

 

[thewishman]

I have seen Elmer's Rotted Wood Stabilizer at Lowes - here is the info from the Elmer's site:
Elmer's Rotted Wood Stabilizer is ideal for sealing and strengthening rotted wood on: Exterior Trim, Window Sashes, Windowsills, Flooring, Doors, Picture Frames, Furniture, Wood Siding, Fence Posts and More! With Elmer's Rotted Wood Stabilizer, you can repair and restore your wood surfaces quickly and easily.

http://www.elmers.com/msds/me760.htm

THe MSDS sheet says it is not toxic.

Would this work as a stabilizer for pen blanks?

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by davidrei
<br />Nancy,

Where did you get all your valves, fittings, guage etc.? I've been meaning to get a vacuum set up, but all the stuff I've read has been a little vague on details of the equipment. I don't want to waste money guessing on buying the right stuff, so a parts list would be greatly appreciated

Dave,

I bought all my stuff from Home Depot. Go to the gas line department for the valve. Like Nacy, I also bought all 1/4" copper fittings when possible.