Berea "petition" -- the Churchill/Grande issues

[redfishsc]

Berea "petition" -- the Churchill/Grande issues

*****2nd edit******

For those who haven't seen this thread, just know that the problem has been solved for the most part IF you buy kits that specifically state that they come with the metal couplers. I know that you can get them from www.beartoothwoods.com. I have not seen the new metal couplers yet but this should take care of the issue. I have bought a lot of stuff from Ernie in the past and he's a great guy to work with. Ernie has the El Grande, Churchill, and Cambridge available.

Anthony from Penworks (look up Penworks in our member list, you'll find him) has told us that he also has Churchills on the way in, and I'm hoping he doesn't mind me mentioning it. I have also done business with Anthony and he's top notch, trust me.

Just to re-iterate: if you are not sure if your pen is coming with a metal nib coupler, you better contact your supplier and ASK THEM because to my knowledge these guys are the only two that are offering it.

Thanks!!
Matt



**** first edit****
--- Please don't misunderstand this post as an intent to scare folks away from using the Churchill/El Grande kits-- they are very nice kits and I want to sell them SO BADLY but they have what many consider a "defect" or flaw that needs to be addressed, in my opinion>>>>>>

A few folks have pointed out to me, rightly, that I'm a bit hard nosed at our suppliers. If they make a kit with a serious flaw, I simply refuse to buy it and warn others about it--- that's probably not the best way to do it.

I've already talked at length with CSA about a few problems I've had with some of their kits.

I have not talked to Berea, and there are a LOT of folks on here who are disappointed in the nib couplers breaking on the Churchill/El Grande. I have had several break, two of them being my personal pens.

Both of these pens are superb products and feel great in the hand.

The problem is that they break too easily where the nib coupler inserts into the long tube blank. Mine broke when writing!

The plastic on the insert is too brittle for me to trust and I will not make and sell them unless this is corrected. I would prefer a metal coupler, but I'm sure there are other ways to go about it.

I am hoping that enough of us here post a reply stating their disapproval of the current design that Berea would notice and respond. Please post your comments and suggestions. I will email them with the link and ask them for a reply.

The truth it there is an issue that happens with a lot of these kits and we believe the kits could be improved and made more durable.

 

[its_virgil]

Call Jim Heusinger, the Pres. of BHW, and discuss the problem with him. He has always been willing to listen when I've called him to discuss similar topics.
do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by redfishsc

A few folks have pointed out to me, rightly, that I'm a bit hard nosed at our suppliers. If they make a kit with a serious flaw, I simply refuse to buy it and warn others about it--- that's probably not the best way to do it.

I've already talked at length with CSA about a few problems I've had with some of their kits.

I have not talked to Berea, and there are a LOT of folks on here who are disappointed in the nib couplers breaking on the Churchill/El Grande. I have had several break, two of them being my personal pens.

Both of these pens are superb products and feel great in the hand.

The problem is that they break too easily where the nib coupler inserts into the long tube blank. Mine broke when writing!

The plastic on the insert is too brittle for me to trust and I will not make and sell them unless this is corrected. I would prefer a metal coupler, but I'm sure there are other ways to go about it.

I am hoping that enough of us here post a reply stating their disapproval of the current design that Berea would notice and respond. Please post your comments and suggestions. I will email them with the link and ask them for a reply.

The truth it there is an issue that happens with a lot of these kits and we believe the kits could be improved and made more durable.

 

[bitshird]

Matt, I've done close to a dozen assorted Churchill's and El Grande's My two daily users are a baron fountain pen, and a Trustone Ivory Churchill Roller Ball.
I've not had any problems as yet, probably because of two factors, the first being I haven't sold any of them, and I am very careful with my Churchill.
The reason being the horror stories I've read here from so many folks who are far more experienced pen craftsmen and ladies than my self.
I would really hate it if a pen I sold for say 75.00 to 125.00 were to break within a short time , one it would do no good thing for my reputation, and two it would really raise my blood pressure to a dangerous level.
Having had a triple bypass 7 years ago and several stents a month and a half ago, this is a problem I would rather avoid; Like you, I enjoy the way the pen feels and the new El Grande Elites are beautiful pens, one in particular is about to become my new daily fountain pen.
I, while not having had any problems would like to avoid them in the future if possible.

 

[tbroye]

I have 3 Churchill roller ball kits. I have built one, I was going to try and sell it,but will hold off for now and start using it. The other 2 kits will stay unbuilt for now and see what happens to the complaints. I know I wasn't to thrilled at not being able to post the cap without damaging the black plastic end. The one I did was the Steriling Siver Churchill and I love the way it looks. It seems the few cents it would take to make the part out of metal would be the right way to go on $15 kit.

Tom

 

[Modelmaker]

Here I thought it was just my heavy hand. I had an El Grande Fountain Pen do this to me.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by its_virgil

Call Jim Heusinger, the Pres. of BHW, and discuss the problem with him. He has always been willing to listen when I've called him to discuss similar topics.
do a good turn daily!

From what I recall, some folks already have done this, and what I'd like to do is call him and refer him to this particular thread. If he sees that some of his more serious clients want to see some change, we stand a chance of seeing a change. Safety and power in numbers. That's how a democracy [is supposed to] work.

 

[karlkuehn]

I've only turned one Churchill out of all the kits that I've bought. That whole kit is dicey to begin with, what with the giant tubes and thin material. It's hard enough to get the kit built right without having to worry about something as stupid as the kit components breaking.

It's a wonderful pen, but I've kinda put a stop on purchasing any more of them until I have the knowledge and tools to replace that crufty nib holder with something home-made and a little tougher. Hopefully they'll catch a clue and build something real so we can sell it in confidence sometime soon. Until then, put me on the list of petitioners for a little more QA on the components.

I agree, though, the 'feel' of the pen is really nice, but I'm afraid to use the darned thing. [B)]

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Well, I have had a few of these break and it is one of the best looking pens out there too. I love the way the look and it is the only fountain pen with a "proper" section. (IMHO) The super simple fix to make that insert, or better yet, the whole press in coupler from metal would make this a great kit. Well, that and I wish the washer for the clip fit the opening cut for it. This slack allows the clip to slide sideways a bit and is poor in the fit and finish.

 

[1080Wayne]

Interesting . I`ve never had the problem you describe , but also haven`t made any for a while because of cracking of the finial . Am I the only one with that problem ? WAyne

 

[Ligget]

I have had two pens break (Churchill rollerballs), luckily they were both pens I had given to relatives. It would be terrible if a customer had paid good money for one only for it to break soon after.[:0]

Until the problem part is rectified I simply refuse to purchase any more Churchill, El Grande or Cambridge kits. It really is a shame as I like all of these styles.

As there are at present approx 5384 IAP members and a large number of the general public who regularly read these threads it must be having some effect on sales of these kits.

 

[Buzz]

Same story here. I've broken a couple myself, only by dropping them a very short distance. I've also had one come back to me from a paying customer for repair. I wonder though how many of these pens that I have sold have also broken, and I am unaware of it. Many people might just write it off to experience and blame themselves for buying pens from a "crafts" person. If this later scenario is the case, the pen is doing us all a disservice.

As others have said, the style is my favourite too, its a beautiful design.

 

[Draconias]

I have an El Grande I made a while back that I use at work. I have not had any problems with it (yet). It was a pain to make, I could not find a 33/64 drill bit and had to ream out the blank after drilling it to 1/2. I have purchased a Cambridge kit (an upgrade for myself) and still was not able to find a 33/64 bit. I will be extra careful with both my Le Grande and Cambridge and will hold off on buying any more of these style pens until they change the design and find a 33/64 bit, lol.

 

[LanceD]

Mark me down at having 3 Churchills break on me at the exact same spots. All were my own pens. I have since sold all of my Churchill kits and won't be making anymore. Sad to say because they are great looking kits.

 

[Jarheaded]

I have 3 dozen kits sitting here and maybe a dozen pens out in the stores. After reading this I am going to ask the owners to pull the pens until I can replace them with something else. I haven't had any problems yet, but the odds don't seem to be in my favor. Hopefully the pens that were sold will not have problems, but if they do,they will be replaced instead of repaired. You can add me to the petition.

 

[gerryr]

I've had two returned from customers because they broke. One of them was very possibly my fault, the other could have been the customer tightening the cap too much. Getting people to complain here, IMHO, will not go any good, at least based on my experience. I called Berea once to complain about several serious design flaws with the roundtop Euro rollerball/fountain pen. I was told it was their best seller and I was the first person to ever complain about it.

 

[marcruby]

CSUSA has 33/64th's brad point bits. http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Accessories___33_64_Drill_Bit___drill_195_0964?Args= For some reason I have two of them and I don't know what pens I used them for!!

Marc

Originally posted by Draconias

... I could not find a 33/64 drill bit and had to ream out the blank after drilling it to 1/2. I have purchased a Cambridge kit (an upgrade for myself) and still was not able to find a 33/64 bit...

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by gerryr

Getting people to complain here, IMHO, will not go any good, at least based on my experience. I called Berea once to complain about several serious design flaws with the roundtop Euro rollerball/fountain pen. I was told it was their best seller and I was the first person to ever complain about it.

That's the exact reason for the post-- so they can't say that I'm the only one having the problem. There are a lot of us who are, and I will direct them to this thread for that exact purpose.

If it does some good, great, we all benefit.

If it does not do any good, it's only a testament to their philosophy of customer service.

 

[Draken]

I had one break (a customer's), BH sent me a replacement part at no cost. I am, however, reluctant to make any more of this style, which I have several of in my shop.

 

[doddman70]

you can add me to the list also out of 6 kits i have had 2 failures

 

[schaf]

Two Churchills , of about ten that I have made, have broken very early in life. Not kean to purchase any more Churchill's.

 

[Texatdurango]

Since some of you are obviously not going to make any more El Grande kits, rather than just let the kits lie around your shop collecting dust, let me know what you want for them, I use the nibs and couplers in my modified pens. So turn your trash into cash and send me a PM letting me know what you have and what you want for them. I might even consider some Churchill kits because they have decent clips as well.

 

[Ligget]

Originally posted by Texatdurango

Since some of you are obviously not going to make any more El Grande kits, rather than just let the kits lie around your shop collecting dust, let me know what you want for them, I use the nibs and couplers in my modified pens. So turn your trash into cash and send me a PM letting me know what you have and what you want for them. I might even consider some Churchill kits because they have decent clips as well.

I love these kits so much I am keeping mine until the weak part is upgraded, then I will use the kits again and also replace the part in the dozen Churchills I have made but not sold or gave away due to this problem.

 

[gwilki]

Darn you, George. You beat me to it.

 

[bgray]

I went back to my books to check my statistics.

Since October, I've sold over 200 pens based on this nib coupler.

I've had about 1 per month returned for this reason.

This is also the only reason that someone has returned a pen.

So that's roughly less than 4%.

Considering that it's a very easy repair, I have no problem with this, and I've done well with pens based on this nib coupler.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by bgray43050

I went back to my books to check my statistics.

Since October, I've sold over 200 pens based on this nib coupler.

I've had about 1 per month returned for this reason.

This is also the only reason that someone has returned a pen.

So that's roughly less than 4%.

Considering that it's a very easy repair, I have no problem with this, and I've done well with pens based on this nib coupler.

Good info, thanks for the stats. I have not sold, nor made, nor even seen, 200 of these pens, but I have a much, much higher failure rate unfortunately.

The one issue, if I were you, would be to consider what I know from my years in retail sales. For every customer that returns a defective item, you probably have at least one, if not more, that have defective items and do nothing about it-- which is not doing good for your reputation or repeat business. Nor does it much good for the image of kit pen makers in general.

 

[bgray]

Originally posted by redfishsc

Originally posted by bgray43050

I went back to my books to check my statistics.

Since October, I've sold over 200 pens based on this nib coupler.

I've had about 1 per month returned for this reason.

This is also the only reason that someone has returned a pen.

So that's roughly less than 4%.

Considering that it's a very easy repair, I have no problem with this, and I've done well with pens based on this nib coupler.

Good info, thanks for the stats. I have not sold, nor made, nor even seen, 200 of these pens, but I have a much, much higher failure rate unfortunately.

The one issue, if I were you, would be to consider what I know from my years in retail sales. For every customer that returns a defective item, you probably have at least one, if not more, that have defective items and do nothing about it-- which is not doing good for your reputation or repeat business. Nor does it much good for the image of kit pen makers in general.

Understood, but I also include a letter with each pen stating that if there is ever a problem due to manufacturing, that I will take care if it if it's within reason...at any time.

It's possible, but I doubt that anyone that had a broken nib holder would not made me aware. Especially when my pens start at $165, and any reasonable repair is free.

 

[bgray]

Also...I would like to add.

Whenever someone has returned a pen based on this this nib holder, they never have said that it was a light drop, or that it broke for an unacceptable reason.

Every return that I've had, the customer feels that it's their fault, and then they are super-impressed that I will fix it for free.

 

[marionquill]

I've had many of the El Grande pens break at that point. I love the kit too, it sells well but I'm always on edge about it being returned (not good for business, word of mouth and repeat sells alike). Most of the time, people break it loose by closing it too tightly (generally men buy this pen or women buy it for men). All it takes is a little too much torque and it busts loose. I would like to see this flaw corrected, especially since it costs me shipping both ways, plus the time to fix it and go back to the post office. I sell it but always put an extra line in there about sending back for repair if anything ever happens to it...

Jason

 

[ken69912001]

I had one sent to me from Australia. Left there in good shape but arrived still packaged great but broke because of difference in altitude and air pressure on the plane here.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by bgray43050

Also...I would like to add.

Whenever someone has returned a pen based on this this nib holder, they never have said that it was a light drop, or that it broke for an unacceptable reason.

Every return that I've had, the customer feels that it's their fault, and then they are super-impressed that I will fix it for free.

Good observation. One of the things I tend to forget, as a cabinet maker and pen maker is that people are often quite impressed and thankful for your time and use of your skills (not always the case though!!!!).

In both worlds I've found that if I'm a mere "product dispenser" I will be relegated to the "Wal-Mart" mentality and everything is seen as commodity.

HOWEVER if I talk of my products in terms of customization, personalization, uniqueness, "made to fit", "made to LAST", then I everything I make is usually seen for what it is-- a unique piece of craftsmanship made by a good ol American just for that particular person.


And with nib couplers that don't break

 

[mdburn_em]

I will be spending some of my cash on test driving some of the new pens at PSI. Berea doesn't seem to want my money, maybe PSI wants to earn it.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by ken69912001

I had one sent to me from Australia. Left there in good shape but arrived still packaged great but broke because of difference in altitude and air pressure on the plane here.

Holy crap. While I'm one to criticize them for selling a kit with a part that I consider poorly designed, I can't quite fathom how air pressure would cause the nib coupler to break. I'm not saying it didn't, but I'd wonder either 1) how that could happen or 2) if it broke discreetly by the pen maker when it was pressed together and the jostling of being loaded on the plane shook it loose. [?]

It'll make a fountain pen pee all in your pocket, that's for sure, but how would it break a nib coupler?

 

[Gepzo]

I had a Churchill kit break at this coupler while in my pocket, and I've had several others break in the shop, twisting on a cap...made me kind of upset to go buy another kit to replace one little part, but that part is one that I cannot reproduce myself. Really put the desire in me to go get a tap/die so I wouldn't need to buy more kits...but that external part is a triple start, right? Not worth the big bucks, as I missed the group buy.

-George

 

[avbill]

Both the Churchill and El Grande pen kits are fine looking pens. After making a slimline they were my first larger pen kits. I bought two kit of each. I made my son a Churchill. I dropped it and at the coupler it broke. I have spare parts. With the El Grande I also replaced the coupler. So with four pen kits and using the second kit as parts --I have said nuts to this and looked for a different pen kits.

Bill Daniels

 

[redfishsc]

Well, Bill, if the Pres of Berea will read this thread and decide to act upon it, our "prayers" will have been answered.

I personally can't wait to make another Churchill. Right now I have an Apollo from PSI in the works, we'll see if it's as classy as the Churchill.

 

[redfishsc]

I just sent an email to Berea, with the intent that it goes to their Pres, Mr. Jim Heusinger, to see what he has to say about the issue.


If given permission by him, I will report here what he had to say. I am actually hoping that he will post here himself.


I REALLY hope that they hear us and make a necessary change so that we can buy and sell this pen with some sort of confidence that they won't break and make us, the pen maker, look amateur or cheap.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Originally posted by redfishsc

I just sent an email to Berea, with the intent that it goes to their Pres, Mr. Jim Heusinger, to see what he has to say about the issue.


If given permission by him, I will report here what he had to say. I am actually hoping that he will post here himself.


I REALLY hope that they hear us and make a necessary change so that we can buy and sell this pen with some sort of confidence that they won't break and make us, the pen maker, look amateur or cheap.

Why don't you call him, Jim Heusinger always had an open ear for me and if you cannot get him on the phone, he will call you back -guaranteed! Last time he called me back I was standing waist deep in a stream and had just hooked a nice trout, so I had (unfortunately) cut my call a bit short. He likes to hear of problems with kits and discusses possible improvements. I used to live about 2 hours away, and whenever I was in the Cleveland area I stopped by and we had a chat and surely I left some money there for kits and great wood.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by Rudy Vey


Why don't you call him, Jim Heusinger always had an open ear for me and if you cannot get him on the phone, he will call you back -guaranteed!

Only for the simple reason that I'm always tied up Mon-Fri 8-5 at work. We've been installing 250 bookshelf units at a new construction at the Seminary. My lunch break is the only time I get and, well, I do nothing that would require much thinking or other brain functions during that time. Even too lazy to dial the phone.

I'm certainly open to chatting with him on the phone if he's available when I'm off (I dunno what time zone he's in, didn't think of that[B)]). For the moment I'll have to stick to email.

 

[Dan_F]

I'll add my name to the list of folks that would like to see this part changed in the two pens. My main user right now is a Churchill FP, but I have been reluctant to buy more due to hearing these reports.

Dan

 

[PenWorks]

I will go on record as The Churchill being a good seller and a good kit to modify. I like the look and feel of the front section
and the lighter weight to the pen. No doubt the week link to this kit is the plastic coupler.

I have started doing business with Dayacom and have already ordered a new Churchill in Ti Gold and Rhodium ,rollerballs and fountain pens with a metal nib coupler modification, replacing the week link. I don't expect them for at least 2 months though.