Ballpoint or RollerBall?

[btboone]

I'm interested in making a high end pen much like my titanium fountain pen, but with a ballpoint or roller ball. I want the pen to have a twist mechanism, and I want a dual motion with a nosecone and the pen point moving independantly. Because I'll need to make the mechanism custom to get the 5/8" travel I'm looking for, I can design for either a ballpoint or roller ball. The Cross refill that comes with kit pens seems robust and writes well. Is that the ultimate answer? Do they offer high end inks in some of those or is the standard one the best there is? I won't have a lid on this one, so I don't know if a roller ball would be well suited.

I'm looking for the ultimate writing instrument that won't dry out, and one that refills are readily available for. Opinions anyone?

 

[PenWorks]

Schmidt makes a capless roller as well as others. Ussually has a 1 year cap life, but if you write with one, you should run out of ink before a year. They make it in two lengths. If you are after a high end pen, I would go capless roller. Just my opinion.

 

[alamocdc]

Bruce, I don't know about others, but I'm not all that thrilled with Cross refills. So far as I know the standard ink is all that is available for them. With the Parker you get the option of using the gel refill, which many people (myself included) prefer. The German roller balls (Hauser, Schmidt, etc.) are even better, but I've not seen any of those being retractable and I'm not sure if they'd dry out if left exposed to any air... even if it was slightly enclosed. JMHO, but someone else may have a better idea.

Oops, Anthony beat me to it.

 

[RussFairfield]

Another opinion. You said "expensive"; and that you were going to make your own retract mechanism.

My option would be using the Mont Blanc refills if there is any way to use them. There are none that write better in either roller or ball point (my opinion), you have the prestige of the Mont Blanc name, and the user has a choice because the two are interchangeable. Yes, they are expensive, but you said that this would be an expensive pen.

 

[btboone]

Good info guys. Also, what about storing the pen upright so the point is up? Would that be a bad thing?

 

[DCBluesman]

I agree with Anthony. It's interesting to note, however, that Schmidt guarantees the capless rollerball against dry out for one year in Europe. They do not offer that guarantee for the US. (Unless they have very recently changed their policy.) Rotring and Conklin also currently make capless rollerball refills which are generally available, but are proprietary sizes.

 

[DCBluesman]

It sounds like a "Vanishing Point" rollerball. A "patent" exists which can be located through the World Intellectual Property Organization. My question is why would you want to have the point up if there is no reservoir for the ink to drain back into.

 

[scubaman]

Originally posted by btboone
<br />Also, what about storing the pen upright so the point is up? Would that be a bad thing?

No, I don't think that'd be a problem. If you don't want to seal it, there are rollerball refills with 1yr or more cap-off time, as Anthony mentioned. Even the std Schmidt refills that come in the kits from CSU (or some Berea) have a very long cap-off time. I recently left one open for several months just to see, and it started right up again. I'd definitely go RB over BP

Be aware that there is another aspect of RB, though - it *IS* (fairly) liquid ink. As such, it WILL wick out, so you could never carry it in a pocket un-retracted. Even retracted, interacting with pocket fluff can ruin shirts and suits. It needs some sort of protection if it is to be carried around. It just doesn't have to be sealed really tight

 

[scubaman]

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />Rotring and Conklin also currently make capless rollerball refills which are generally available, but are proprietary sizes.

... which shouldn't be an issue here, right?

 

[PenWorks]

Parker style refills are generally becoming more universal with pen makeres that don't do the propietery thing. You can buy a capless roller in a parker style as well as gel and ball pen which is a nice feature. I still think the standard capless rollers are the best bet for a more univeral fit for a cartridge that someone can ussually find. It's kind of funny sometimes, I use the same Retro 51 capless rollers in the $25.00 Retro Tornado as I put in a $300.00 Delta, sometimes a person will write with both pens and remark how much nicer writing the Delta is [:0]

 

[DCBluesman]

Originally posted by scubaman
<br />

Originally posted by DCBluesman
<br />Rotring and Conklin also currently make capless rollerball refills which are generally available, but are proprietary sizes.

... which shouldn't be an issue here, right?

Since Bruce mentions the need for a 5/8" travel on whatever transmission system he has designed, one of the proprietary lengths may better fit his needs...maybe not! [8D]

 

[btboone]

I imagine it won't be an issue. The mechanism can work very similar to the way one works in a kit pen, just bigger diameter and longer travel. I imagine it could be modified for most types of refills. I have checked patents, and I don't look to be infringing on anything. The original vanishing point fountain pen patents are expired, as are many similar ones. A lot of this type of stuff was done back in the 30's or so.

The pen point would retract into the nosecone, then the nosecone would retract into the pen body in two separate motions. The ink portion should be far enough away from fabrics to prevent wicking.

Storing it upright has to do with making it without a clip. I would use the desk stand or a leather holster for pockets. The clip adds a lot of complexity, especially in the new design, and a few people didn't like the look of the clip. My fountain pen clip works OK, but not as well as some other designs. The wall thickness is the big issue; I try to make it relatively thin to cut down on weight. Titanium can't be soldered to, so needs some kind of mechanical fastener. On this one, I'll be attempting to introduce wood into some spiralled grooves. It would get pretty tricky to add the indent for a clip in all that. It could be done if people think it needs a clip, otherwise I'd have it sit in the pen stand like the fountain pen did.

 

[JimGo]

Originally posted by btboone
<br />...The original vanishing point fountain pen patents are expired, as are many similar ones. A lot of this type of stuff was done back in the 30's or so.

That's our Bruce...always on the cutting edge! []

Bruce, all kidding aside, this sounds REALLY cool; can't wait to see it! I'm a big rollerball fan (since I'm a lefty, and am still working on overcoming my fear of fountain pens) - I'd be happy to test the design for you! []

 

[wayneis]

Bruce I don't really think that a clip would be an issue if you are talking expensive. If you also design a nice stand for the pen then thats the way that it sells. I'm one of those that don't care so much for a clip. If you look at men's styles in shirts the pocket is slowly going away now that smoking is not as popular.

Wayne

 

[ed4copies]

Bruce,

Lots of thoughts, but I hate long messages, so here's my bottom line. No one has mentioned the Cross rollerball as an option-perhaps because the top of it has no "driving" mechanism-it is rounded, can't easily be "grabbed" to retract.

So, why bring up Cross? Because they offer a wealth of options in the rollerball-their selectip line has a fine and medium felt tip, as well as a variety of colors of inks in rollerball. They should be considered. But, all of their tips will dry out if left uncovered.

NOw, what about the Parker refill. It does offer a "driving" top, but with the gel refill instead of the ballpoint, it also has to be retracted. Drying out has not been a problem in my experience.

All that being said, I agree with Russ. IF you can design in the Mont Blanc, you just bought a whole lot of higher-end name recognition. That alone will sell some higher-end pens, but will Mt. Blanc have a cow??? What I don't know about patent law will fill the volumes you have probably already read-so I leave that decision to you and your legal advisors.

Whatever you decide, sounds like a really neat idea. Good Luck

 

[btboone]

Great points Ed. I assume that some of the refills would need a spring to return it because they can't be grabbed onto to retract. I do like the idea of the Mont Blanc or other similar high end refills. I don't think I could advertize the fact without their permission, but I don't imagine they could stop someone from designing for them. It would be like if you owned your own drink vending machine and filled it with soda that you bought from Sam's Club. As long as the customer gets the brand of drink that the machine says they are getting, I think that would all be above board. You bought the soda by normal means, so it should be yours to resell? It is an interesting point of topic.

Another question for the experts: what type of wood might work well in such an application. It needs to be able to be cut thin along a helical spiral, so the grain needs to be dense and strong so it won't easily snap at the grain point. Definitely nothing with holes or inclusions. I was thinking maybe olivewood?

 

[scubaman]

Originally posted by btboone
<br />Another question for the experts: what type of wood might work well in such an application. It needs to be able to be cut thin along a helical spiral, so the grain needs to be dense and strong so it won't easily snap at the grain point. Definitely nothing with holes or inclusions. I was thinking maybe olivewood?

Olive sounds good. Maple, lignum vitae are others that popped into my mind. Maybe bloodwood for its color. I don't know exactly how wide these will be, I assume fairly narrow, so you probably want to look at something w/o very pronounced grain

 

[DCBluesman]

Bruce--Montblanc products (including their refills) can only be sold by authorized Montblanc dealers. They agressively fight resellers and shut them down. I would be very careful in what you do with their product, including simple packaging. As for the types of wood that will work well with thin spiraling, I would shy away from olivewood due to it's propesity to split. I think the more customary veneers would be better suited for your purposes, at least until you complete your proof of concept. Cherry, walnut and maple come to mind.

 

[Chuck Key]

Originally posted by btboone
<br />I'm looking for the ultimate writing instrument that won't dry out, and one that refills are readily available for. Opinions anyone?

No one has mentioned the Fischer Space Pen refill for Cross pens. Here is a quote from their web page.

The cartridges of conventional ball point pens are open to permit ink to be fed to the point. The secret behind the Fisher Space Pen lies in the unique design characteristics of the ink and the high precision manufacturing tolerances of the ball point and socket. The ink is fed to the ball point by gas pressure permitting the pen to write in any position. An additional benefit of the closed design is that it keeps the pen from drying out giving the Fisher Space Pen an estimated 100 year shelf life.

Chuckie

Edited to add picture of refill:

 

[btboone]

Thanks for the heads up about Mont Blanc. These wood pieces will be laser cut from a turned pen shape. The width will be around 1/8" and thickness will be around 1/16" or so. They would glue onto a titanium pen machined with those grooves. The trick is to match the ID of the wood to the bottom of the slots and keep the wood thin for accurate laser cuts. I would have a couple drilled holes so the ID of the wood will change in steps. The other alternative would be to make a special drill bit that follows the contour, but it would have to be a very deep drill, so such a drill would likely chatter badly.

The Walnut I have here definitely won't work well. It has big splinters. Maybe there's finer grained stuff out there. I have some Brazilian Cherry, which could do, but I'd also like for it to look fancy with a pronounced grain that would show that all the spiralled pieces came from the same piece of wood. I assume I'd do a CA finish, so maybe that would help keep olivewood from cracking?

 

[btboone]

Great idea Chuck. That would tie in well with the titanium aerospace theme and could use normal Cross refills as well. Has anyone tried one? How do they write?

 

[woodscavenger]

Cocobolo? It has tight grain and machines well and the color ranges are spectacular. I am looking forward to seeing your design.

 

[driften]

They also have the fisher space pen refils for parker type pens....

 

[btboone]

Do they have refills like that at a common store like Office Max or Office Depot?

 

[driften]

I think I have seen the fisher refills at Office Depot. I guess someone could check their web page.
I have bought real Mont Blac refils at Office Depot many times. They also sell 3rd party versions of some refils like the Mont Blac ones. I guess if you wanted to be able to make your pen to MB you could supply them with the clone refils and tell the customer it works with the name brand version!

 

[btboone]

Great idea Jeff. I need to take a look at those places. I'm so busy with rings that I only drive my car every couple of weeks! I need to go back to the shop tonight as a matter of fact. [:0]

 

[btboone]

I just realized that the mechanism I had in mind is similar to the Cross one we use in kits. The unit would be press fit into the front half and the refill would screw in from the back. Although the Cross refill Space Pen is a great answer for that, I saw that they also have ones to fit other standard sizes for roller balls. It might make sense to design for one that could use a capless rollerball or a space pen. I would like to try out both to try to see if one is perceived to be a higher end pen than the other. I wonder if they might work in the same way, with pressurized ink that's thicker than normal?

Does anyone have an idea how a capless rollerball mechanism would work? The cartridges look to be bigger in diameter and don't look to screw in. I could do the same mechanism, but the traveling part that the Cross refill screws into would have to have a screw-on plug to trap the larger refill below it. Having the extra part to lose doesn't sound like the best way to do it. They probably have a way that the whole mechanism is in the back end, and the refill gets trapped below it when the two halves are put together.