Anyone have a quicker way to size blanks?

[TurtleTom]

I was drilling holes first then turning on the mandrel. That just doesn't seem right to me. Even at high speed the blanks will seize several times and I keep having to tighten the mandrel saver and take lighter cuts. The cutting is just too slow.
So I changed it around so I now turn the blanks down to the flat sides before I ever drill the holes. There is no danger of increasing your chances of a bad drill through because the flat sides were the limits anyway.
I have to turn it once in the chuck to accomplish this but it is still a lot faster than the mandrel. I'm using the parting tool to do all the turning as it seems to go quicker with less thrown shavings than my 8mm round carbide cutter. I tried this because when I had a fracture occur it always happened when I was approaching the end from the middle. The stress of pushing I suppose. So I started doing the ends first with the parting tool and after a while just kept going. When it's all round I drill it where it is.
After gluing, I trim it square with a boring bar, if that piques any interest.

 

[mredburn]

I use a 4 jaw chuck and a live center and round all my blanks before drilling. I then drill them in a collet chuck on the lathe. Glue the tubes in and take a couple of passes off the outside while mounted on the bushings. That make the outside parallel with the tubes. I then rechuck it to square the ends to the blank and tube. THen I do the final passes of cutting to correct size and any shaping I want to do.

 

[Skie_M]

Drill on lathe ....

Use router table with roundover bit to take the corners off ....

Mount on mandrel to turn outside concentric with inside ...

Take it to the chuck to get your ends squared ....

And then back to mandrel to finish turning between bushings.


That's the method I would use if I had all the tools.

 

[WriteON]

I was drilling holes first then turning on the mandrel. That just doesn't seem right to me. Even at high speed the blanks will seize several times and I keep having to tighten the mandrel saver and take lighter cuts.

Drill first... mandrel turn works fine for me. If the blanks are catching you're possibly taking too big of a plunge and the chisel is catching.
I think it would be fair to say...do whatever you are comfortable with as far as sizing goes.

 

[mredburn]

I have seen a video where Constance from Lazerline spins them on his lathe and slides his router down them making them the finished size in one pass. He uses a special jig for the router of course but man is it fast.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

What's a mandrel?

I can turn fast with fairly substantial cuts from a square blank turning between centers. I generally use a spindle gouge and grab some bevel support and good to go.

 

[Skie_M]

I have seen a video where Constance from Lazerline spins them on his lathe and slides his router down them making them the finished size in one pass. He uses a special jig for the router of course but man is it fast.

Yeah, I've seen people do something like this with a duplicator jig and a trim router in place of the bit ....


In my mind, however, something like that is NOT HAND MADE. I'ld prefer to keep my hands on the tools.


I hear a lot lately about turning between centers .... I'll have to try it sometime. I understand that as long as your tailstock and headstock are perfectly aligned, you have nothing to worry about, and you have zero chance of bending a mandrel this way ...

 

[mredburn]

I make bushings out of brass for each tube size, one side is gripped by the chuck and the other has a 60 degree hole from a Center Drill bit to fit the live centers on my lathe. No mandrel.
Each bushing is only about .040 wider than the tube. (.020 each side)
Most pen kits have a .040 wall thickness each side. Since I measure all my parts I dont need but one set per any tube size. I dont have to worry about which bushing goes with which kit.
The one for the headstock side has a shoulder to fit up against the jaws and at least 1/2 and inch of free space between the chuck and the shoulder that stops the blank. That give me room for the tool as it comes off the blank. The one on the head stock is usually around 2 inches long and the other is about 1 inch long.

 

[larryc]

I round my blanks before drilling using a Steb Centre in the headstock. Expensive but does the job. Buy Sorby 7/8" Diameter, #2 MT at Woodcraft.com
Turning from the ends toward the middle reduces the chip out at the ends.
I have tried the router table method but have never been able to get it to work to my satisfaction.

 

[TurtleTom]

You have all given me a lot to try and to think about, thank you very much. I like the idea of turning between centers but I just don't have the bushings for that, yet. I like the idea of using brass as Mike does. Brass can be turned on a wood lathe I suppose, so I could make some TBC bushings that way.
Even if I do get around to turning between centers I still have to turn the blank to a size that shows me there are no hidden defects down close to the final size. The oak I've been using has a lot of defects that just fly off so I turn without the tube glued in. And I guess I just don't want to have to turn the blank down to brass to recover the tube. Do others just toss the tube when you have a bad blowout or do you turn it down to recover the brass?
Wow! That Sorby live center is expensive. Why is it 3 times the price of the Wood River I wonder.

 

[mredburn]

Here is a quick picture for reference of how I shape the bushings for any given size of tube.

 

[Olsarge]

after I drill and glue in the tubes, I square the ends on my 12" disc sander and then knock the corners off with the sander. Depending on the material I take more or less off the corners. Just the way I do it. Dennis

 

[KenV]

"Why is it 3 times the price of the Wood River I wonder."

There i a pretty good rule of thumb that as precision/quality assurance increases so does price.

I use a 1/2 inch Steb (the trademarked one that was patented by Steb) set (drive center and tail stock) that hurt to buy a lot of years ago but has very low runout and has lasted for thousands of sticks.

There are some knock offs on the market - not a well finished or heat treated.

There is quite a range of prices in live centers -- and several on the higher price end are several times the cost of those on the lower end. The higher end ones are still selling well for reasons.

 

[TurtleTom]

Here is a quick picture for reference of how I shape the bushings for any given size of tube.

I like the design and would probably have made virtually the same thing. I want a shoulder like you have to prevent pushing back into the chuck and it's long enough to keep you away from the chuck. Well done. Now to find some brass. Chutzpah I've got, but no brass thingees. :biggrin:

 

[TurtleTom]

There is quite a range of prices in live centers -- and several on the higher price end are several times the cost of those on the lower end. The higher end ones are still selling well for reasons.[/QUOTE]

The age old quandary that put Harbor Freight into business. Even when I was working as a machinist I couldn't afford the Starrett tools. I suppose it's because I wasn't union like the workers at Starrett. But. I do know good tools and I'm a little ashamed to have it pointed out to me. Now I can't afford Sorby tools either because I'm retired. Second had Rose I suppose.

 

[Rockytime]

I make bushings out of brass for each tube size, one side is gripped by the chuck and the other has a 60 degree hole from a Center Drill bit to fit the live centers on my lathe. No mandrel.
Each bushing is only about .040 wider than the tube. (.020 each side)
Most pen kits have a .040 wall thickness each side. Since I measure all my parts I dont need but one set per any tube size. I dont have to worry about which bushing goes with which kit.
The one for the headstock side has a shoulder to fit up against the jaws and at least 1/2 and inch of free space between the chuck and the shoulder that stops the blank. That give me room for the tool as it comes off the blank. The one on the head stock is usually around 2 inches long and the other is about 1 inch long.

Brilliant idea. I will copy. No more buying bushings for every pen kit. Good money saver too!

 

[Paul in OKC]

I guess I am old school still. I drill with a drill press (and a nice vise :wink. I do most turning on a mandrel still, both blanks on it for two bodied pens. I do have some between center bushings for a couple of kits, but........

 

[Paul in OKC]

There is quite a range of prices in live centers -- and several on the higher price end are several times the cost of those on the lower end. The higher end ones are still selling well for reasons.

The age old quandary that put Harbor Freight into business. Even when I was working as a machinist I couldn't afford the Starrett tools. I suppose it's because I wasn't union like the workers at Starrett. But. I do know good tools and I'm a little ashamed to have it pointed out to me. Now I can't afford Sorby tools either because I'm retired. Second had Rose I suppose.[/QUOTE]

Don't have Starrett myself. One or two I suppose gotten from a box at an auction maybe. Use Mitutoyo and Fowler in the shop. Sorby tools maybe nice, but.....I have learned to use what I have. Favorite turning tools are two I made myself.

 

[Edgar]

All the suggestions posted above are good. Like most everything else, it's a matter of personal taste & preference.

I round my blanks as you first described, except I use an R2 carbide tool rather than a round one. I don't have any problem getting the mandrel saver tight enough to keep the blanks from spinning. You might want to make sure the tail stock isn't moving back on you when you tighten up the mandrel saver.

I like the R2 tool better than the round one for this purpose and I just make plunging cuts to take off the edges and round the blank. Depending on the wood, I'll make my cuts anywhere from 1/8" wide to the full width of the blade. At high speed, it generally takes less than a minute to get the blank fully round and ready to start shaping. Soft, brittle woods do take longer.

Edgar

 

[silent soundly]

I also don't have a problem rounding my blanks. Is your tool nice and sharp?

 

[SteveG]

I will add an important comment to Mike's post showing his design for brass bushings. Notice that the portion of the bushing that fits inside the tube is fairly long. There is a reason for that. The added length helps minimize wobble or runout as compared to typical mandrel bushings which rely on the mandrel rod to accomplish that, and often fail to accomplish it effectively due to low quality typical of many "kit" bushings.

 

[TurtleTom]

Yes the tool is razor sharp. Carbide, on a handle I made from a truck shock absorber. When it gets dull I take it off and hone it flat down on a 3 micron diamond hone. It is my favorite tool among all the ones I have bought.
I want to try one of the R2 (any D2?) cutters but I'm not sure as I am addicted to resharpening and I don't think I can do that to the R2 as the top isn't flat, but I intend to try anyway.
I just bought the mandrel saver last week so I'm still getting used to it. I need to make one of the springs Skie invented to keep it all tight.
Blowouts are my only real problem, and now that I'm using the cutoff tool on the ends I think that problem is history.

 

[Chasper]

Drilling, squaring and turning to round! Alternative techniques for those three tasks seem to get discussed often and I don't get it.
1. I drill on a drill press with a PH vise and I can drill 40-50 sections in an hour if my bits are sharp. If it is ultra critical that entry and exit holds be precisely located I drill on the lathe and it takes 50% longer.
2. I square ends with standard squaring tools, takes less than a minute for a section.
3. I turn between centers or mandrel and with either I can turn to round in less than 15 seconds using a scraper. Can you knock off corners with a sander, router or by pre-turning to round in less time than that?
I realize that not everyone makes 3,500 to 4,000 pens in a year like I do, so speed may not be as important, but it seems to me that these alternatives techniques add nothing but time to the three tasks.

 

[tomtedesco]

I found roughly rounding the blanks on the disc sander cuts down on the amount of pressure I need to apply to the mandrel.

 

[mecompco]

A metal lathe is awesome for this--center drill, put the blank between centers and use the power feed to knock off the corners and get it round (you can sit and just flip the lever). Then chuck it up in the 4 jaw and drill it. If it's a straight pen, the metal lathe is awesome for turning it. If it needs some "creativity", put it on the wood lathe.

I've had pretty good results taking regular bushings and center drilling them for a 60% taper. I've made my own slim and comfort bushings out of steel, which work really well.

The metal lathe is also great for finishing and assembly (with home-made Morse tapered inserts tipped with cutting board material).

 

[TurtleTom]

Drilling, squaring and turning to round! Alternative techniques for those three tasks seem to get discussed often and I don't get it.
1. I drill on a drill press with a PH vise and I can drill 40-50 sections in an hour if my bits are sharp. If it is ultra critical that entry and exit holds be precisely located I drill on the lathe and it takes 50% longer.
2. I square ends with standard squaring tools, takes less than a minute for a section.
3. I turn between centers or mandrel and with either I can turn to round in less than 15 seconds using a scraper. Can you knock off corners with a sander, router or by pre-turning to round in less time than that?
I realize that not everyone makes 3,500 to 4,000 pens in a year like I do, so speed may not be as important, but it seems to me that these alternatives techniques add nothing but time to the three tasks.

You are just the guy we all need to pay attention to. That's a lot of pens. Thanks for the professional info.

 

[WriteON]

Sorry if I'm off track here. I enjoy going through the steps...lathe drill, square on the lathe, turn on a mandrel. It's a hobby. It's custom work. If I wanted a faster production or needed to mass produce I'd look for a cnc lathe or pay a little more and use rounded blanks...and add a few bucks to the selling price. If CA is not used for a finish it should take about 15minutes to turn/polish/finish a squared blank with an inserted tube.
I'm not arguing with anyones technique. What ever gets you to a satisfactory finish is the best way to go.

 

[TurtleTom]

You are totally correct in your assessment WriteON, and I should be more like you. I've worked too much production I suppose, paid to find the quickest way, sometimes in hundreds of a second, but now it's to save time more than anything else. The more time I save the more pens I'll have a chance to make before I go to that great Pen Holder in the sky. Efficiency tinged with a little art is all I'm after.

 

[Skie_M]

Yes the tool is razor sharp. Carbide, on a handle I made from a truck shock absorber. When it gets dull I take it off and hone it flat down on a 3 micron diamond hone. It is my favorite tool among all the ones I have bought.
I want to try one of the R2 (any D2?) cutters but I'm not sure as I am addicted to resharpening and I don't think I can do that to the R2 as the top isn't flat, but I intend to try anyway.
I just bought the mandrel saver last week so I'm still getting used to it. I need to make one of the springs Skie invented to keep it all tight.
Blowouts are my only real problem, and now that I'm using the cutoff tool on the ends I think that problem is history.

That wasn't me who came up with that idea .... that was Sabaharr.

Link is here.

 

[TurtleTom]

I'm afraid I've contracted Old Timer's. You are correct, and thanks again Sabaharr.

 

[WriteON]

You are totally correct in your assessment WriteON, and I should be more like you. I've worked too much production I suppose, paid to find the quickest way, sometimes in hundreds of a second, but now it's to save time more than anything else. The more time I save the more pens I'll have a chance to make before I go to that great Pen Holder in the sky. Efficiency tinged with a little art is all I'm after.

Keep your lathe hummin' TurtleT. The beauty of it is the finished product. A little art is right. I would say it's a lot of Art in a little package.

 

[Chasper]

Sorry if I'm off track here. I enjoy going through the steps...lathe drill, square on the lathe, turn on a mandrel. It's a hobby. It's custom work. If I wanted a faster production or needed to mass produce I'd look for a cnc lathe or pay a little more and use rounded blanks...and add a few bucks to the selling price. If CA is not used for a finish it should take about 15minutes to turn/polish/finish a squared blank with an inserted tube.
I'm not arguing with anyones technique. What ever gets you to a satisfactory finish is the best way to go.

I agree that it is more enjoyable to slow down and add precision to the micro level in pen making. But the title of the original post is "Anyone have a quicker way to size blanks?" I know a quicker way, I turn them on a lathe from square to round in 15 seconds or less. No need to handle them twice and set up a different machine to work on them.

If you are referring to a two section pen, then 15 minutes is in the ball park to turn, polish and finish, I plan on 10-12 minutes, half that time for a one section pen.

BTW, pen turning is not a hobby for me, operating a small art show business is the hobby. I spend most of my pen making time casting and building blanks. There is more than a little art here. We sell pen art at top tier art shows and our sales levels are competitive with artists in the fine art and jewelry categories.

 

[TurtleTom]

Not off track

Sorry if I'm off track here.

You're definitely not off track, you are the one I most want to learn from. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for a day or two. That's how I want to learn to do it, and plans are in the works. So thanks very much for your advice, it didn't go unnoticed.

 

[WriteON]

Everyone is on track here. No wrong way produce a pen if you like the result. My problem at first was to settle down. I wanted to do 5-10 at a time of various sizes. That gets mixed up. I lost more time re-doing a blank. I think drilling is the most time consuming aspect.
Ok I did drift from the subject. To speed things up I would start with a 12" blank or more if possible ....round off the entire piece between centers and then cut segments. Sorry if someone posted this.
I did not read all of the posts. I commend TT for his thought process. It's all about staying creative and productive. I got lazy and bought a second lathe. I realize not everyone can do that but it speeds things up. I got tired of changing chucks and accessories.

 

[Turned Around]

for my acrylic blanks, I use my CNC just to get it rounded. I do that while I hand turn and shape the rest of it on another lathe. almost like a mini assembly line. by the time I'm done shaping and do the rough sanding (up to 1,200), the other one is done, put a new square in the CNC and repeat. then I wet sand and polish them all off in one sitting.

 

[TurtleTom]

Here is a quick picture for reference of how I shape the bushings for any given size of tube.

How many of these did you make? Not being in the business I think I'll just start with one for slimline pens and just mike the wood down to size. Finally got my brass in after the obligatory glitch.

 

[raar25]

The following is just the way I do it. I use a skew and if I am in a hurry can get most wood round in less than 5 minutes on the lathe. As long as the skew is sharp the blank does not stop turning on the mandrel. Unless you have a dedicated lathe for each set up, the conversion of the lathe for each set up will take you at least a few minutes for each set up. If you have one set up for rounding one for drilling and one for finishing you are spending probably 15 minutes just setting up the operations on the lathe. I do everything on my mandrel and leave my drill press set up for drilling and the only set up time I have is finding the correct bushings.

My best process improvement was learning the skew.

 

[jttheclockman]

The following is just the way I do it. I use a skew and if I am in a hurry can get most wood round in less than 5 minutes on the lathe. As long as the skew is sharp the blank does not stop turning on the mandrel. Unless you have a dedicated lathe for each set up, the conversion of the lathe for each set up will take you at least a few minutes for each set up. If you have one set up for rounding one for drilling and one for finishing you are spending probably 15 minutes just setting up the operations on the lathe. I do everything on my mandrel and leave my drill press set up for drilling and the only set up time I have is finding the correct bushings.

My best process improvement was learning the skew.

Amen to that

 

[Skie_M]

Another method one could use to greatly speed up production would be to do multiple pens at a time at each step ...


For instance, when making a batch of pens (funlines for Freedom Pens), I'll set up 5 sets of blanks ahead of time (pre-rounded) and drill them all at once, and then glue up all my blanks at once, trim them all on the sander, and then turn them one by one ... I only have to re-set the accessories on my lathe 4 times to do 5 pens.

 

[Brian G]

My shop is in my basement. On those nights where I want to stay late in the shop, but the other 50% of the house prefers to sleep, I do things that don't make noise.

One of those things is cutting the edges off blanks by using a small block plane and a holder made from a scrap of v-block.



A few quick passes with the sharp block plane gets to:



In this example, I used it to round the edges of a Celtic knot blank, to reduce the chance for a catch and a blow-up.