My first ever Commission - Roman Harvest and Blackboy.

[Bob Wemm]

This started off so well, and I was really happy with the result. That is while it was sitting in the packet for several days. Then I decided that I would do the photograph thing and post it here.
Even after taking the close up photo I didn't notice what had happened since it was assembled.
When I loaded the photos onto my computer it was quite devastating to see all the cracks in the CA finish.
Oh well, I know that it has happened to many of you, but this is the first time for me, and now I know how you feel.
Oh well, take it all off and start again, but I will use a different wood this time.
As usual C&C welcome.
Thanks for looking,

Bob.

 

[mark james]

Oh my but that is a beautiful piece of wood!!! Hope you can save it.

 

[Ironwood]

That's a real bummer Bob. It's amazing how things like that can happen when you least want them to. It is a shame, because it would have made a nice looking pen.
Have you had trouble with Grasstree before ?

I am doing a commissioned pen set as well at the moment, I have had to recast three blanks so far, I think I have got it beat now thank goodness, but it was starting to get annoying for a while there

 

[johncrane]

That's a real bummer Bob! bloody murphy's law, that kit/blank is a great matchup, id be trying to redo the finish.

 

[wyone]

wow... such a beautiful pen to have that happen to. Are you going to try and turn back to the wood and refinish? I have not had this happen yet, but would like an idea how to hopefully safe that quality of work

 

[TonyL]

Do you think those cracks could be from assembly pressure? I barely have any experience with CA finishing, so I may be way off. I am just guessing.

 

[Ted iin Michigan]

That's such an awesome pen it would be a shame to dump it. Refinishing is an option. I did it when I had cracking issues. Turns out my issue was "old" CA. Suggest you get a fresh batch.

 

[Jim15]

That's a beautiful pen. Hope you can fix it.

 

[lyonsacc]

Been there, done that for a few different reasons - a few too many times. You can fix it!

 

[BJohn]

That stinks, it was a beautiful pen. As mentioned earlier hope you can effect a repair

 

[BSea]

Do you think those cracks could be from assembly pressure? I barely have any experience with CA finishing, so I may be way off. I am just guessing.

I doubt that the cracks are from the assembly. You can see them all through the cap piece with no connection to the fittings on the end.

Bob, I have no experience using that timber (although I'd like to). Have you used it before? About the only thing I can think of is a big change in temperature. I know it's cold where you are now, and I wonder if was left out in a cold shop after the CA was applied. That is just a guess though. So far I've never had this happen with a CA finish (knock on wood).

 

[mark james]

An additional thought Bob... If this commission is going International, with changes in temperature, you may want to consider a different finish.

Many folks appreciate the feel of wood vs a CA, and many "woodturner's finishes" will stand up to changes in the wood swelling and shrinking with changes in temperature and humidity (I suspect you knew all this already!).

Just a consideration. :wink:

 

[Bob Wemm]

Do you think those cracks could be from assembly pressure? I barely have any experience with CA finishing, so I may be way off. I am just guessing.

I doubt that the cracks are from the assembly. You can see them all through the cap piece with no connection to the fittings on the end.

Bob, I have no experience using that timber (although I'd like to). Have you used it before? About the only thing I can think of is a big change in temperature. I know it's cold where you are now, and I wonder if was left out in a cold shop after the CA was applied. That is just a guess though. So far I've never had this happen with a CA finish (knock on wood).

Hi Bob,
You are correct, there is nothing to do with assembly, but I have only done one other pen with Blackboy and CA and I looked tonight and that is cracked also.
So the possibilities are old CA, and the wood, which is quite soft. I applied one coat of thin CA and then 12 coats of Med. CA and then sanded to 2400 and buffed with Tripoli and white diamond.
?????????????????????????????

Bob.

 

[Bob Wemm]

An additional thought Bob... If this commission is going International, with changes in temperature, you may want to consider a different finish.

Many folks appreciate the feel of wood vs a CA, and many "woodturner's finishes" will stand up to changes in the wood swelling and shrinking with changes in temperature and humidity (I suspect you knew all this already!).

Just a consideration. :wink:

Hi Mark,
Yes this was intended for International purposes.
Thanks for the thought.

Bob.

 

[Sandsini]

Bob,
Tough luck on the finish. I just had an Alt Ivory blank blow up on me (first time ever!) and the pen I was making was the most expensive commission I have had to date, for what is a (rather impatient) doctor and return customer. I felt awful telling him there would be a delay.

I know that many here use medium CA for their finish, but I have had much better luck with thin only and I put about 5 or 6 coats on, then sand level and do another 6 or so. My finishes aren't going to be as thick as yours but they look good and I wonder if that, combined with the potential of old CA, might be contributing to your problem.

Best of luck,

 

[1080Wayne]

Think I agree with Eric . A thick CA layer takes a long time to fully cure . The cracks may be just shrinkage cracks occurring as the CA off gases and contracts , with the cracks showing up at places where adhesion of the CA to the wood is a bit poorer .

If you want to experiment , try a thin finish and your current finish , both taken to high gloss , on two pieces of the same wood , and check them out every week , for a month .

 

[Bob Wemm]

Thanks for the helpful hints guys, They are much appreciated.
I also made a "Snakewood" pen on the same day as this one, the finish method is identical on both pens and the Snakewood has not cracked yet. I also made a Walnut pen at the same time as the first "Blackboy" one and that has not cracked either, so that tells me that it is the "Blackboy" that is the problem.
Temperature range has been in the vicinity of Min. 55 - 60F and Max. 75 - 85F over the last week or so. So I don't think that has anything to do with it either.
Looks like a different finish to me.
Once again, Thank you for your thoughts.

Bob.

 

[robutacion]

Hi Bob,

I don't recall you saying that the wood was stabilised, was it...???

I never worked with that wood but, and as you know, I have "some" experience with all types of softwoods so, after your confirmation on what you did to it before start turning, I may be able to make some suggestions that can possibly resolve the reaction of that wood with the deep CA finish.


I do in fact know, what that pen is, and its destination, you are made your plans to have this "special" pen been made with that unusual and unseen wood of yours so, I think that you should persist with it and find the solution to the problem, I will do my best to help...!

You may even have to grab a 500gr. postal bag and send me a few blanks fro me to treat, my way, you can have then back in a very short period of time, this is what friends do...!:wink:

Let me know.

Cheers
George

 

[OZturner]

What a Bummer Bob.
Such a Magnificent Pen.
I feel for you, it nearly made me cry.
I think I would take George up on his offer, about Stabilising.
The Xanthorrhoea, aka "Grass Tree" or "Black Boy" isn't a wood as we normally know it.
Its structure is not unlike that of a Tree Fern, where the Trunk Structure is a series of longitudinal thin tubes attached to each other with a close fitting membrane.
I believe it is this structure that gives it the ability to withstand the extreme heat of Bushfires, over the years, and for it to continue to bounce back to life.
As such, these tubes may need to be filled with a Stabilising agent, to give them resistance to movement from external pressures, such as Humidity, Temperature, Stress Relief, Curing Pressure of the CA, or whatever else we can subject them too.
Regards,
Brian.

 

[mikespenturningz]

That is a nice looking pen you have there Bob. Great job.

 

[boof910]

Certainly a beautiful pen worth saving Bob.

I have had similar results on a couple of burl pens but not in such a short time frame. Put it down to the timber moving and refinished them.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Hi Bob,

I don't recall you saying that the wood was stabilised, was it...???

I never worked with that wood but, and as you know, I have "some" experience with all types of softwoods so, after your confirmation on what you did to it before start turning, I may be able to make some suggestions that can possibly resolve the reaction of that wood with the deep CA finish.


I do in fact know, what that pen is, and its destination, you are made your plans to have this "special" pen been made with that unusual and unseen wood of yours so, I think that you should persist with it and find the solution to the problem, I will do my best to help...!

You may even have to grab a 500gr. postal bag and send me a few blanks fro me to treat, my way, you can have then back in a very short period of time, this is what friends do...!:wink:

Let me know.

Cheers
George

George, I'll do this here rather than by email, so everyone can benefit.
The wood is quite soft and powdery, all I did was drill and glue in the tubes with thick CA. Turned them down to size and sanded to 600 gr.
Then I applied a good thin CA coat to seal the wood. Then I proceeded to apply the 12 coats of med CA and then sand and polish as described.
I did not allow any time for any of the CA coats to cure?????????
Just applied one after the other with accelerator in between.
The Blackboy wood is only about 1mm thick so there was not a lot of wood to move etc.

What do you think?????

Bob.

 

[robutacion]

Hi Bob,

I have no experience with that wood but, I have a feeling that the wood wasn't ready for sealing with CA, maybe so moisture or even natural sap that didn't like to be enclosed in CA.

I would not consider a problem with the CA age, as you have tolds us that you have done/finish other pens with it, at the same time so, that problem is out however I ask, how old are the CA bottles you used, I say bottles because you used the thin CA to soak the barrel before sanding and finishing, and one can have a problem, this is assuming, only...!

I would like to see those blanks cooked in the oven @ 80° celsius for a few hours and then stabilized before that get cold. From there I would proceed with the normal stabilization processes and test them out.

How long did you say that the barrels cracked after you finish them...???

I know that you don't have your own stabilization gear so, get a small postal bag filled with some good blanks, and I will get them ready for you, in no time and free of charge, you need that pen to get done right and to last, huh...???

Let me know...!

Cheers
George

 

[Bob Wemm]

Hi Bob,

I have no experience with that wood but, I have a feeling that the wood wasn't ready for sealing with CA, maybe so moisture or even natural sap that didn't like to be enclosed in CA.

I would not consider a problem with the CA age, as you have tolds us that you have done/finish other pens with it, at the same time so, that problem is out however I ask, how old are the CA bottles you used, I say bottles because you used the thin CA to soak the barrel before sanding and finishing, and one can have a problem, this is assuming, only...!

I would like to see those blanks cooked in the oven @ 80° celsius for a few hours and then stabilized before that get cold. From there I would proceed with the normal stabilization processes and test them out.

How long did you say that the barrels cracked after you finish them...???

I know that you don't have your own stabilization gear so, get a small postal bag filled with some good blanks, and I will get them ready for you, in no time and free of charge, you need that pen to get done right and to last, huh...???

Let me know...!

Cheers
George

George,
I noticed the cracks after only 3 days.
The CA is about 18 months to 2 years old.
The wood was very dusty, so it was dry, but could have had some moisture in it.
The other problem that I have discovered is that CA is the only process that leaves the wood in its natural colour. The bowls and other things I have made using WOP or Lacquer or Shellawax as a finish, have all resulted in a big degree of colour change, making the wood quite dark.
CA does not change the colour at all.
Even if worked and left in the open atmosphere for a week or so, it starts to go darker. I have no idea what will happen with the stabilisation process but I guess we had better give it a try.
I will send you some.

Cheers and thanks,
Bob.

 

[OZturner]

Hi Bob,

I have no experience with that wood but, I have a feeling that the wood wasn't ready for sealing with CA, maybe so moisture or even natural sap that didn't like to be enclosed in CA.

I would not consider a problem with the CA age, as you have tolds us that you have done/finish other pens with it, at the same time so, that problem is out however I ask, how old are the CA bottles you used, I say bottles because you used the thin CA to soak the barrel before sanding and finishing, and one can have a problem, this is assuming, only...!

I would like to see those blanks cooked in the oven @ 80° celsius for a few hours and then stabilized before that get cold. From there I would proceed with the normal stabilization processes and test them out.

How long did you say that the barrels cracked after you finish them...???

I know that you don't have your own stabilization gear so, get a small postal bag filled with some good blanks, and I will get them ready for you, in no time and free of charge, you need that pen to get done right and to last, huh...???

Let me know...!

Cheers
George

George,
I noticed the cracks after only 3 days.
The CA is about 18 months to 2 years old.
The wood was very dusty, so it was dry, but could have had some moisture in it.
The other problem that I have discovered is that CA is the only process that leaves the wood in its natural colour. The bowls and other things I have made using WOP or Lacquer or Shellawax as a finish, have all resulted in a big degree of colour change, making the wood quite dark.
CA does not change the colour at all.
Even if worked and left in the open atmosphere for a week or so, it starts to go darker. I have no idea what will happen with the stabilisation process but I guess we had better give it a try.
I will send you some.

Cheers and thanks,
Bob.

Bob and George.

Could you please keep us abreast of your processes, progress, achievements and results. Ideally on this post.
I have a trunk here, that at sometime in the not too distant future, I will be looking to Cut Up and Turn,and it would be nice not to have to re-invent the wheel, or have catastrophic failures.
Regards,
Brian.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Hi Bob,

I have no experience with that wood but, I have a feeling that the wood wasn't ready for sealing with CA, maybe so moisture or even natural sap that didn't like to be enclosed in CA.

I would not consider a problem with the CA age, as you have tolds us that you have done/finish other pens with it, at the same time so, that problem is out however I ask, how old are the CA bottles you used, I say bottles because you used the thin CA to soak the barrel before sanding and finishing, and one can have a problem, this is assuming, only...!

I would like to see those blanks cooked in the oven @ 80° celsius for a few hours and then stabilized before that get cold. From there I would proceed with the normal stabilization processes and test them out.

How long did you say that the barrels cracked after you finish them...???

I know that you don't have your own stabilization gear so, get a small postal bag filled with some good blanks, and I will get them ready for you, in no time and free of charge, you need that pen to get done right and to last, huh...???

Let me know...!

Cheers
George

George,
I noticed the cracks after only 3 days.
The CA is about 18 months to 2 years old.
The wood was very dusty, so it was dry, but could have had some moisture in it.
The other problem that I have discovered is that CA is the only process that leaves the wood in its natural colour. The bowls and other things I have made using WOP or Lacquer or Shellawax as a finish, have all resulted in a big degree of colour change, making the wood quite dark.
CA does not change the colour at all.
Even if worked and left in the open atmosphere for a week or so, it starts to go darker. I have no idea what will happen with the stabilisation process but I guess we had better give it a try.
I will send you some.

Cheers and thanks,
Bob.

Bob and George.

Could you please keep us abreast of your processes, progress, achievements and results. Ideally on this post.
I have a trunk here, that at sometime in the not too distant future, I will be looking to Cut Up and Turn,and it would be nice not to have to re-invent the wheel, or have catastrophic failures.
Regards,
Brian.

Sure thing Brian, That's why I asked George to do this in the thread rather than by email.
That way anyone interested can keep up with what is happening.
This is such a beautiful wood???? and it discolours so easily, we have to find a way to solve the issue.
Thank you for your interest.

Cheers,
Bob.

 

[robutacion]

Sure Bob, send them in...!

Don't worry Brian, you will know how it all goes, in due time...!

I will turn one blank as a sample after the treatment and coated with the CA finish as I always do and see what happens, at least I will be about 1 week in front of Bob's tests, if it took 3 or 4 days for the finish to crack on his untreated blank, will be interesting to see what will happen to the sample I will make when Bob receives his blanks back, minus 1, after being Georgenised :wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[Bob Wemm]

George, they will be in the post tomorrow.
Please take note of the colour before you do anything with them, then compare after being stabilised.

Thanks,
Bob.

 

[robutacion]

George, they will be in the post tomorrow.
Please take note of the colour before you do anything with them, then compare after being stabilised.

Thanks,
Bob.

Sure Bob, I will...!

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

OK Bob, the blanks (8) arrived yesterday and I already done some checking before I put them in the oven, where they still are...!

I took good note of the colour change you mentioned and to allow me to compare, I took some pics before I done anything to them. I could see that, this wood darkens like the Mulberry wood does, exposed to light and air, it darkens quite considerably so, I took pics of some side that already show that darkness and them some pics from the "fresh" cuts...!




I then weigh them and there is a small variation in between then, a couple of grams either way,

I then checked what my durometer (it says Shore A but is a B) readings were on its softness, I tested it in 3 different locations and this is the result,

And finally, I took the MC% readings,


In general, the wood is dry, and felt that way but that, we already know, huh...??? so, lets see what happens to the next stages.

The blanks had already 2 runs of 90 minutes each @ 80° celsius, and 2 runs this morning, I will give them another 2 runs this afternoon and then straight to the stabilising chamber, as soon as they get a little cooler/less hoter...!

The blanks are covered (not wrapped) with foil paper to prevent any direct burns to the wood...!

Cheers
George

 

[tgsean]

Bob that is a great pen, hope you are using full protection with Grass Tree (blackboy). That is one of the most carcinogenic (cancerous) timbers you can ever turn! If you are well protected it should be fine. Try to disassemble and turn it back to the bare wood and redo the CA. Great pen and timber, hope you can salvage it mate.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Bob that is a great pen, hope you are using full protection with Grass Tree (blackboy). That is one of the most carcinogenic (cancerous) timbers you can ever turn! If you are well protected it should be fine. Try to disassemble and turn it back to the bare wood and redo the CA. Great pen and timber, hope you can salvage it mate.

Thanks for that Sean, I do already know about the dangers of Blackboy and take the appropriate precautions.
Good to have you back.

Cheers,
Bob.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Thank you George,
It certainly will be interesting to see what happens.
Some of the dark patches are from the outer edge of the root or close to a split in the root, thus allowing air and water in.

Cheers Mate,

Bob.

 

[robutacion]

Test, part - 2

OK, the blanks were taken from the oven this afternoon after 6 runs of 90 minutes at 80° celsius so a 9 hours of oven time. The first thing I did was to weight them and see it was any loss of weight ,
a small loss but a loss, 3gr average from 30 to 27gr so, what was that they lost..???, as they were looking pretty dry at 7%MC right..??? this is what they lost, 6%MC (moisture content). Where that come from...??? environment/air moisture...!

The blank probed was the very same as before and you can see from the indentations I made on the the second time around, the pins were indeed making deep contact,

Now, the colour comparison test seem to show that, the roasting of the blanks did not affect the colour, thanks to the foil protection, this is the pic taken of the group after coming out of the oven,

Before I put them in the stabilisation chamber, I took the readings again with the Durometer, why...??? because I knew that, when wood is toasted to almost 0% MC, the wood cells harden slightly, did this happen...??? you be the judge



I have so far, validated every single expected event, as I mention before a few times, the blanks are now under full vacuum, have started at 3:50pm and will be turned off about about midnight, the blanks will stay submerged until tomorrow morning, after of which they will be drained and let drain for the rest of the day, I should cook them sometime tomorrow evening.

The next day I will do a few simple surface colour tests to measure any difference, after that I will select the worse blank of the batch and I will turn it round halfway and then proceed with my normal CA finish, 2 thin + 6 medium + 2 thin, sand, polish it and see what comes up.

The time of turning/completing the sample will be recorded, along with ambient temp. and humidity, this first pic will be taken immediately and shown on this thread, I will use the super Macro function to provide clear details of the finished surface.

The blank will have an identical pic taken every 2 days, while the treated blanks (7) will be returned to Bob immediately. There will be about 1 week before he gets them back, in the mean time he and all of us, we can see the sample every 2 days and look for any signs of cracking, if by the time Bob get his blanks back, the sample performs as I expect it to, Bob will be safe to make is important commissioned pen and any others he may wish to do so...!

My commissioned pen is waiting for the kit to arrive from the USA (PSI), I couldn't find what I wanted on any of the Australian suppliers, not that is something unique, you guys have been using these kits for some time but, the correct plating, wasn't available here.

A simple kit with a couple of spare tubes + shipping AU$70.90 , I better cast something for the tubes that will make it worthwhile otherwise, I will get pretty wild...!

Anyway, we wait and see...!

Cheers
George

 

[Bob Wemm]

Thank you George.

Bob.

 

[robutacion]

Test part-3

Well Bob, I don't think that my news are that good, it look promising but, the results are a little confusing and at the same time, a indication of something that isn't right with this wood.

After all those hours in the oven, I put them in the vacuum chamber and I deliberately use fresh Cactus Juice to see if the wood would stain it and how much. Why that, you would ask....! well, is a smell associated to the raw wood that resembles a small log that I found years ago and that, I also had problems with the finish I was using at that time, it wasn't CA but some gloss varnish, the varnish after dried, just cracked and peeled like a banana, this would be expected with oily woods in no preparation to the wood was made, the wood didn't have natural oils but, it had a natural sap that would come to the surface if the surface of the wood was sealed with anything, I didn't have the stabilization at that time so, I don't know how it would go...!

The first thing that I noticed when I poured the juice into the vacuum pot, the blanks were buoyant, and after being under vacuum for 6 or 7 hours, they were still buoyant (I had a weight pushing the blanks down while the pump was going) and that normally means trouble.



The colour of the Juice did start changing, as soon as the blanks were inserted on it but, after the stabilization done, my concerns were realised and the juice was well contaminate, and this is many times worse that the results I get with other woods, after the first use of fresh juice. I poor the unused juice in a container and put it side by side with a new container, and that was the colour I started with...!



Unwrapping the blanks from the foil, revealed another disappointment, the blanks didn't seem to have taken any juice so, I done the softness test again with the durometer to see if there was any difference, and some how, it was a small improvement of the wood hardness,




With the exception of 1 blank, all others seemed to have darken with the roasting, that was expected to a point, and if the roasting was done well, the wood would maintain its natural colour underneath while, if the good gets burt, the darkness is seen straight through the wood but, that wasn't the case here so Bob, you will get your blanks back with its natural colour preserved...!:wink:



And finally, I need to find out if the wood has taken on any juice at all, and this was the most disappointing result of them all, it didn't...!



Well, this is all I could do for today (well, is 1:00 am so, I started yesterday)

The next step is to turn half blank and finish it as I will do on a pen (steps already described before). These Georgenized blanks, may not get the results I was expecting, too early yet to make a conclusive decision nevertheless, if there will be no improvements is because I didn't gave it a good shot...!

One not always get what they want...!

We will see...!

Cheers
George

 

[Bob Wemm]

Hey George,
I hope you haven't posted those blanks back to me yet. If you still have them please either keep them or chuck them in the bin, as they are pretty well useless and I do have a heap more here.
I have been trying some different ways of doing a CA finish while you have been conducting these experiments, and everything I have tried has failed, even to the point of the wood peeling off the tube in my hand. That was not a failure from insufficient glue when fitting the tube, because when the blank was almost to its finished size I applied heaps of thin CA which appeared to be soaking in. It was not until I had applied 1 thin and 4 med coats and sanded and was about to apply the next coat that I realised that the tube and wood had parted company.
There is obviously some kind of resin/inhibitor in the wood which prevents the intake of liquids.
So, chuck 'em out. Don't waste any more money or time.

Thank you so much for all your effort. Like you said, win some loose some.

Cheers,
Bob.

 

[OZturner]

Bob and George,
For what it is worth.
After following the processes that George has conducted, and your latest results Bob.
I got to thinking and trying to remember the finishes I have seen on various turned items of Grass Tree over the years.
To the best of my recollection, I think most were left natural, or with a light wax on /wax off type finish.
Perhaps you could give that a try, or even use a little Renaissance wax. That is used for all types of materials by the British Museum.
Brian.

 

[Bob Wemm]

Bob and George,
For what it is worth.
After following the processes that George has conducted, and your latest results Bob.
I got to thinking and trying to remember the finishes I have seen on various turned items of Grass Tree over the years.
To the best of my recollection, I think most were left natural, or with a light wax on /wax off type finish.
Perhaps you could give that a try, or even use a little Renaissance wax. That is used for all types of materials by the British Museum.
Brian.

Hi Brian,
Thank you for your interest in this, I tried some Shellawax Friction Polish this afternoon but with several coats there was very little shine, like a Satin finish which would be acceptable. Everything else I've tried has made the wood go very dark and unattractive.
The problem that I've also found today is that there is no guarantee that the tube will bond with the wood. One part of the blank is stuck firm, but the other end just peeled off in my fingers, after being heavily coated with thin CA several times and then had 4 coats of med CA. The wood was like a piece of cardboard. All that CA had not penetrated or reacted with the wood to harden it. There must be some sort of resin preventing this from happening.
The other thing is without some type of hardener, the wood definitely would not stand up for use as a pen.
I just feel that I cannot guarantee a result so I am going to abandon the Blackboy and use another timber.

Cheers,
Bob.

 

[tgsean]

Wow, George and Bob you both have gone through a lot of effort to try to get this grass tree to work! George you have worked on this like a true scientist! As mentioned before, please ensure very good inhalation protection is used, as it is one of the most cancerous woods. Bob have you tried wipe on poly? Its available in Bunnings produced by a company called Minwax.