Amazing (?) New Finish

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Galanw

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Red Dyed Box Elder (a freebee from BB) dipped in Deft Waterborn Acrylic. Best looking finish I ever got. Two coats...right from the can with no sanding, polishing, or buffing and no wax. It couldn't be easier (except for the wait).

I have no idea how it will hold up. I wrote to ask about this on the finishing forum, but no replies. Galanw

BoxElderBurl.jpg
 
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gketell

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gorgeous!!!!!

So, how exactly do you dip it? String through the tube with a washer on the end? Then what? Twirl it to remove excess?

I'm in the search for a new finish because I believe I'm starting to have mad reactions to cyano fumes. Last two times I was finishing pens my nose stopped up after I got a whiff of the drying cyano and I felt like I had the worlds worst cold for several days after that.

Thanks!!
GK
 

Galanw

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I too was driven to a new finish because of a reation to CA fumes (even with vapor masks, fans, etc).

I put the barrel on a 1/4" threaded rod with the bearings and nuts holding them in place. I dunk the whole thing in the can and let it drain over the can until it stops dripping. Then I hang it up to dry (2 hours). No twisting or turning. For the second coat I reverse the barrel to keep the coating even. The technique is described somewhere on this forum for lacquer dipping. After the second coat dries to touch (2 hours), remover the bushings or they will be difficult to remove after it cures (overnight?).

Another good finish for the CA challenged is Enduro. The Deft Waterborn Acrylic seems like a similar consistently.

Galanw
 

ahoiberg

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that does look nice. i was awaiting a response to your question in the finishing forum, looks like you've got one now. [:)]

did you get one of those smaller cans at woodcraft or something? quart sized? i'm just curious how two barrels would dip in it if you were making something other than the sierra. is there room?

i'm intrigued.
 

JimGo

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Can we see a close-up of the barrel? The finish looks great, and I'd be really curious to see it in detail.

Or, even better, would you mail the pen to me? [:D]
 

Galanw

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A combined reply:

I used a 1 qt. can. There are several articles and posts about dipping on this site. Just search the archives.

Photo in lieu of sending pen: Under extreme magnification I can see some minute ridges at the bottom. In real life it is perfectly smoothe.
Barrel.jpg
 

JimGo

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Thanks! I'd still prefer the pen, but the finish looks pretty good, even at this size.

How long did it take to cure?
 

Galanw

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I'm not sure. Since I didn't polish, buff or wax, I can't tell you that it was fine after x hours. It felt like I could have assembled the pen after two hours (when I removed the bushings), although I left it overnight before assembling.
 

2rcbruce

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I do something similar with water based polly for hardwood floors. It holds up really well and looks pretty good too. The only thing i do diferent is to pollish with Hutt plastic pollish on the lathe after it dries. bruce
 

heineda

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Greg,

I have been using the BLO?CA finish for a while now, and I explained my process of applying the finish until my eyes started to burn, and a strong odor was present. I have since found out that as the CA cures, it emits a gas. The gas is what is bothering your nose. The gas is Cyanide!!! Make sure you have lots of ventilation when using the CA finish method.

Happy Turning,
Dan Heine
 

DCBluesman

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Originally posted by heineda
<br />Greg,

I have been using the BLO?CA finish for a while now, and I explained my process of applying the finish until my eyes started to burn, and a strong odor was present. I have since found out that as the CA cures, it emits a gas. The gas is what is bothering your nose. The gas is Cyanide!!! Make sure you have lots of ventilation when using the CA finish method.

Happy Turning,
Dan Heine

I'm sorry, but CA glue does NOT give off cyanide gas (hydrogen cyanide) as it cures. Before posting information like this, it pays to do the requisite research. Here is a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) from one of the leading purveyors of CA glue.

1 CHEMICAL PRODUCT AND COMPANY IDENTIFICATION
Product Type: Cyanoacrylate Ester
2 COMPOSITION, INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Ingredients CAS No. %
Poly(methyl methacrylate) 9011-14-7 5-10
Ethyl Cyanoacrylate 7085-85-0 90-95
HYDROQUINONE 123-31-9 0.1-0.5
Ingredients, which have exposure limits
Exposure Limits (TWA) ACGIH OSHA OTHER
Ingredients (TLV) (PEL)
Ethyl Cyanoacrylate 0.2ppmTWA None None
HYDROQUINONE 2mg/m3TWA 2mg/m3TWA 2mg/m3TWA
4mg/m3STEL
3 HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Toxicity: Bonds skin rapidly and strongly
Skin and eye irritant
Estimated oral LD50 more than 5000mg/kg
Estimated dermal LD50 more than 2000mg/kg
Signs and Symptoms of Exposure: Vapor is irritating on eyes and mucous membranes above TLV.
Prolonged and repeated overexposure to vapors may produce
Symptoms of non-allergic asthma in sensitive individuals
4 FIRST AID MEASURES
Ingestion: Ingestion is not likely. See supplemental page for emergency procedures.
Inhalation: Remove to fresh air. If symptoms persist, obtain medical attention
Skin Contact : Soak in Warm water. See supplemental pager for emergency procedures.
Eye Contact: Flush with water. See supplemental page for emergency procedure
2
5 FIRE FIGHTING MEASURES
Flash Point: 180 F
Method: Tag Closed Cup
Recommended Extinguishing Agents: Carbon dioxide, foam, dry chemical
Special Firefighting Procedures: Not available
Hazardous Products formed by fire or thermal decamp: Irritating organic fragments.
Unusual Fire or Explosion Hazards: None
Explosive Limits ( % by volume in air) Lower : Not available
Explosive Limits (% by volume in air) Upper : Not available
6 ACCIDENTAL RELEASE MEASURES
Step to be taken in case of spill or leak: Flood with water to polymerize. Soak up with an inert
Absorbent.
7 HANDLING AND STORAGE
Safe Storage; Store below 70F
Handling: Avoid contact with skin and eyes. Avoid breathing vapor.
8 EXPOSURE CONTROLS, PERSONAL PROTECTION
Eyes: Safety glasses or goggles
Skin: PE gloves and aprons. Do not use cotton. See section 12 for additional information
Ventilation: Positive down-draft exhaust ventilation should be provided to maintain vapor
concentration below TLV
Respiratory: Not available. See Section 2 for Exposure Limits
9 PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
Appearance: Clear liquid.
Odor: Sharp, irritation
Boiling Point: 140-160 F @ 3-5 mmHg
PH: Does not apply
Solubility in Water: Polymerized by water
Specific Gravity: 1.05 @ -10 F
Vapor Pressure: Less than 0.2mm
Evaporation Density: Approximately 3
Evaporation Rate(Ether=1) : Not Available
10 STABILITY AND REACTIVITY
Stability: Stable
Hazardous Polymerization: Will not occur
Incompatibility: Polymerized by contact with amines, alkalies, water and alcohols
Conditions to Avoid: Not available
Hazardous Decomposition product ( non-thermal): None
3
11 OTHER INFORMATION
Estimated NFPA Code:
Health Hazard: 2
Fire Hazard: 2
Reactivity Hazard; 1
Specific Hazard: Does not apply
Estimated HMIS Code:
Health Hazard: 2
Flammability Hazard: 2
Reactivity Hazard: 1
Personal Protection: See Section 8
12 OTHER INFORMATION
Cyanoacrylate adhesive is a very fast setting and strong adhesive. It bonds human tissue including
Skin in seconds. Experience had shown that accidents due to Cyanoacrylste are handled best by
Passive, non-surgical first aid. Treatment of specific types of accidents is given below.
SKIN CONTACT
Remove excess monomer. Soak in warm, soapy water. The monomer will come loose from the skin
Several hours. cured monomer does not present a health hazard even when bonded to the skin. Avoid
Contact with clothes, fabrics, rags, or tissue. Contact with these materials may cause polymerization.
The polymerization of large amounts of monomer will generate heat causing smoke, skin burns, and
Strong, irritating vapors, Wear PE gloves and apron when handling large amounts of adhesive.
SKIN ADHESION
First, immerse the bonded surfaces in warm, soapy water. Peel or roll the surfaces apart with the
Aid of a blunt edge, e.g.a spatula or a teaspoon handle: then remove adhesive form the skin with
Soap and water. Do not try to pull surfaces apart with a direct opposing action.
EYELID TO EYELID OR EYEBALL ADHESION
In the event that eyelids are stuck together or bonded to the eyeball, wash thoroughly with warm
Water and apply a gauze patch. The eye will open without further action, typically in 1-4days.
There will be no residual damage. Do not try to open the eyes by manipulation.
ADHESIVE ON THE EYEBALL
Cyanoacrylate introduced into the eyes will attach itself to the eye protein and well disassociate
From it over intermittent periods, generally covering several hours. This will cause periods of
Weeping until clearance is achieved. During the period of contamination, double vision may be
Experienced together with a lachrymatory effect, And it is important to understand the cause and
Realize that disassociation will normally occur within a matter of hours, Even with gross contamination.
4
MOUTH
If lips are accidentally stuck together, apply lots of warm water to the lips and encourage maximum
Wetting and pressure from saliva inside the mouth. Peel or roll lips apart. Do not try to pull the lips
With direct opposing action. It is almost impossible to swallow Cyanoacrylate. The adhesive solidifies
And adheres in the mouth. Saliva will lift the adhesive in one half to two days. In case a lump forms
In the mouth, position the patient to prevent ingestion of the lump when it detaches.
BURNS
Cyanoacrylates give off heat on solidification. In rare cases, a large drop will increase in temperature
Enough t cause a burn. Burns should be treated normally after the lump of Cyanoacrylate is released
From the issue as described above.
SURGERY
It should never be necessary to use such a drastic method to separate accidentally bonded skin.

For what it's worth, hydrogen cyanide was the gas of choice for many execution chambers starting as early as the 1920's.
 

its_virgil

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Check this out.
[Q] Is it true that CA glue is made from Cyanide? Can I poison myself with it?
[A] Shingend@ix.netcom.com (Mark and/or Mary Shannon)

As a qualified chemist (Ph.D. in the ruddy subject), let me try to
clarify the point.

Cyanoacrylate glues contain the group H2C=CH-CN: Where the =
represents a double bond between two carbons and there is a triple
bond between the carbon and nitrogen of the CN. CN is the 'cyano'
group, and a three-carbon chain with a double bond next to another
type of multiple bond (or some other form of electron rich group
such as a radical or anion) is an 'acrylic' group -- the combination
gives a relatively high reactivity to the compounds and allows them
to polymerize like a plastic. Many non-toxic compounds contain both
types of groups, and many medicines have cyano groups. Along with
this group, there are other chemicals and can be other chains
attached to that cyanoacrylate group in place of one or more of the
hydrogens.

There is <b>NO, NONE, NADA</b> cyanide released on curing these glues and
hardening. There are some obnoxious fumes released -- some of them
just parts that boil out from the heat of the curing reaction. BUT,
whenever an organic chemical that contains nitrogen is burned, some
cyanogen/hydrogen cyanide is released. This happens with tobacco,
meat, veggies, fireplace wood, etc. This release is worst when there
is not enough oxygen present in the burning zone to ensure complete
combustion -- so if there is a lot of smoke formation, there is more
likelyhood of cyanide formation.

As with any chemical process, it is best to have good ventilation
when dealing with these compounds, but most Cyanoacrylate glues have
been formulated as non-toxic (some of the original uses were as skin
and tissue glues to replace sutures in surgery). If you are burning
CA glues, do it in the same hood you use for spray painting. This
goes for operations where you are using CA glue to hold parts for
soldering, especially, since the fluxes and the modest burning
temperatures add their own brew to the mix. Combustion Chemistry is
a field in itself, and there are many things not understood about
general rules of chemical formation in various conditions of burning
organic compounds. I would suggest that everyone play it safer than
they might normally when they are burning any of the materials used
in this hobby.
I found this at: http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/models/rms_tips/rmsfaq.5.html and there are some other good Q&A on CA glue and its use. I enjoyed reading the other questions.

Do a good turn daily!
Don



Originally posted by heineda
<br />Greg,
I have since found out that as the CA cures, it emits a gas. The gas is what is bothering your nose. The gas is Cyanide!!! Make sure you have lots of ventilation when using the CA finish method
Dan Heine
 

leehljp

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Thanks Don. This is very helpful to know. I also know that CA is used in some medical procedures where sutures are not easy to use. So, CA is put directly onto flesh.

I will also say that I was not affected by CA fumes and CA dust two years ago but did start having reactions to it about 6 months ago. I use a respirator now.
 

bloggstein

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Oh, sweet pickles... Reading the part about the eyeball glueing on that datasheet is freaking me out. It takes a bit to get my attention, but for some reason I'm really sensitive about my eyes. They're still watering just thinking about it... "Do not try to open the eyes by manipulation." Yyyyyyeeesh... That makes me shiver.
 
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Originally posted by bloggstein
<br />Oh, sweet pickles... Reading the part about the eyeball glueing on that datasheet is freaking me out. It takes a bit to get my attention, but for some reason I'm really sensitive about my eyes. They're still watering just thinking about it... "Do not try to open the eyes by manipulation." Yyyyyyeeesh... That makes me shiver.

I think I remember our esteemed mod MesquiteMan did that last year? Eh, Curtis?
 

chazmonro

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Great, now I have a new strange eye fear. First it was sucking my eyeball out with the shop vac and now its getting ca glue in my eye. Good thing I always wear my safety glasses.
 
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Originally posted by chazmonro
<br />Great, now I have a new strange eye fear. First it was sucking my eyeball out with the shop vac and now its getting ca glue in my eye. Good thing I always wear my safety glasses.

Sucking your eyeball out with the shopvac... I am on the florr tryinv to tyle wni.e lauighkineg..,. oh my!

I thought my fear of sucking up one of the cats with my DC was bad. I can just imagine reaching the hose under a cabinet or bench to pick up chips and sucking the cat tailfirst into the hose all the while it has sunk its claws as deep as it can in the linoleum to hold on for dear life. Then I would have to explain to the family why and how the cat got devoid of hair from its butt to the end of its tale.

Oh the phobias we have. Sucking your eyeball out with the shopvac... Still funny!
 

Mikey

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Very interesting thought on the dipping, but how do you keep the finish from inside the barrel, and if it does get inside the tubes, how do you clean it all out?
 

mewell

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Originally posted by Mikey
<br />Very interesting thought on the dipping, but how do you keep the finish from inside the barrel, and if it does get inside the tubes, how do you clean it all out?

Glad you asked, Mikey! I'd also like to know THAT answer. The finish looks GREAT and LOML and I were all set to go out and buy some up when the same light bulb came on for me. I'd also like to hear any thoughts on "production" finishing - like 10 or more pens at a whack.

Thanks,
Mark
 

Rifleman1776

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Originally posted by bloggstein
<br />Oh, sweet pickles... Reading the part about the eyeball glueing on that datasheet is freaking me out. It takes a bit to get my attention, but for some reason I'm really sensitive about my eyes. They're still watering just thinking about it... "Do not try to open the eyes by manipulation." Yyyyyyeeesh... That makes me shiver.

A couple months ago there was a story in the Little Rock, Arkansas news about a guy baby sitting his girlfriends one year old daughter. For whatever sick reason, he glued her eyes shut with CA. The picture in the paper of the baby was heart rending. The judge released the monster on $1000.00 bond. Sorry about going OT, this story has stuck with me.
 
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