Skie_M
Member
In addition to tube sizes (to include kits with multiple size tubes!!) I'ld love to be able to use these charts to look up what length tube is required for that kit.
Kit Bushings and Tubes Updates
- Thread starter Wayne
- Start date
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mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
The tube lengths are in the charts. Column C for the upper tube, Column I for the lower tube.
edstreet
Member
I have had several fabricators tell me, as well as have confirmed it myself, some of the numbers in these charts are grossly inaccurate. What if anything is being done or could be done about that?
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
Wayne created these charts. If you think revisions are needed submit the information to him.
edstreet
Member
That's why I posted and ask him, not you 
but thanks for the reply anyways.
but thanks for the reply anyways.
brownsfn2
Member
I have not found any to be inaccurate yet. Can you mention a couple so I can check it out as well? I use this often when I need to sub a tube between kits.
BKind2Anmls
Member
Thanks for doing this for everyone.
I have about 30 bushings that I have no idea what they are for. I'm hoping your chart will help me identify them.
I have about 30 bushings that I have no idea what they are for. I'm hoping your chart will help me identify them.
triw51
Member
Thank you I found this to be helpful.
Skie_M
Member
Aha ... found them. They just weren't in the top section with the rest of the stats, I had to go hunt them down in the second half of the doc.
Thanks! Great resource, I'll be using it a lot!
Great that you have brought this to my attention.
I would be helpful to forward your fabricators and corrections to me.
I certainly would appreciate your support on this subject.
With your help, you could post the inaccuracies for the good the IAP.
You've been the only member to bring this to the IAPs attention.
You're always welcome to contact me with this information directly.
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Ed
I'm sure you'd agree, we can't do anything if we don't know about the errors.
Can you please post here the numbers you have confirmed to be grossly inaccurate? I'm sure Wayne wants those corrected!
Also, can you please either post or PM me the names of the fabricators who have reported gross inaccuracies to you. I'd like to make sure that we catch all the errors (unless you're sure that the numbers you report completely envelope their concerns.)
Thanks - Jeff
Berea is one of the charts out there. Go to the home page and scroll to the bottom of the RH column to see a link pointing to all charts.
I have not heard from Ed Street on this, so I'm issuing a plea to any of the fabricators who might have contacted him regarding errors in this data. Please PM me directly (and cc: [profile]Wayne[/profile]) and point us in the direction of the bad data.
We greatly appreciate the input. We hope to have some exciting news for you soon on these charts, and we want the data to be squeaky clean.
THANKS!
edstreet
Member
I have replied in pm on this.
Not to me, and I asked you to do so.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that is eagerly looking forward to this secret info going public.
Any chance of it being published by this weekend? I have the weekend off and am hoping to make a pen or two......but I don't wanna start if there is chance that they will be grossly inaccurate.
Please Ed-ucate us...:wink:
Any chance of it being published by this weekend? I have the weekend off and am hoping to make a pen or two......but I don't wanna start if there is chance that they will be grossly inaccurate.
Please Ed-ucate us...:wink:
edstreet
Member
Ok, here is the problem.
I have talked with four people who make bushings. Each one has stated the bushing charts are taken from the manufactures pdf sheet and in some cases was grossly inaccurate. There have even been a few post here on IAP as well as Facebook groups and the 3 other pen turning forums that I watch.
The most recent bushing maker I talked with on the phone stated he has resorted to physically measuring the tubes *and* kit then cut accordingly.
One kit that I measure the factory bushings and pen kit hardware, the el toro, was off by 0.6mm with the bushings being to small. The PDFs was also incorrectly stated as to what was measured across a good 20 kits so far.
Now if your plan is to only cater to the very sloppy tolerant factory bushing crowd then rock on and ignore what I am saying. If you want to be inclusive and cover the low slop tolerance tbc crowd then each kit must be measured along with the tubes and charted from there.
I have talked with four people who make bushings. Each one has stated the bushing charts are taken from the manufactures pdf sheet and in some cases was grossly inaccurate. There have even been a few post here on IAP as well as Facebook groups and the 3 other pen turning forums that I watch.
The most recent bushing maker I talked with on the phone stated he has resorted to physically measuring the tubes *and* kit then cut accordingly.
One kit that I measure the factory bushings and pen kit hardware, the el toro, was off by 0.6mm with the bushings being to small. The PDFs was also incorrectly stated as to what was measured across a good 20 kits so far.
Now if your plan is to only cater to the very sloppy tolerant factory bushing crowd then rock on and ignore what I am saying. If you want to be inclusive and cover the low slop tolerance tbc crowd then each kit must be measured along with the tubes and charted from there.
Brian G
Member
So you want Wayne to rummage through everybody's pen component sets and bushings, measure 100% of them, and then use the results before you would be happy? I take exception to your statement that my use of bushings somehow categorizes me a sloppy pen maker. I think you should take Jeff up on his request to inform him of the names of the fabricators, lest you be considered a different kind of fabricator.
edstreet
Member
News flash. I never indicated nor hinted at you, or else for that matter, being a sloppy pen maker.
Also Jeff is full aware of the whom.
I also never hinted at, nor implied, nor implicated Wayne partake in any of the mentioned activities.
alphageek
Former Moderator
So.. Your problem isn't with the fabulous, hard work that was done to gather multiple sources of information into one location, but that the data that the manufactures publish on the dimensions of their products isn't accurate.
So the "multiple fabricators" are people who make custom bushing, not the actual kit fabricators.... Doesn't sound ANY different than the multitude of us who say to ALWAYS measure against the kit you're making to because even different platings and manufacturing runs can affect the final dimensions - no SINGLE source of the dimensions will be accurate enough for those who want to get their pens perfect.
So.. you compared a single bushing to a single pen kit and got a difference - don't see how that affects the data in the IAP library.
And you finish off your answer by insulting Jeff, Wayne and anyone who uses factory bushings - Good plan! (sarcasm for those who can't read that into it). The funny thing is that 'low slop', 'sloppy', brand new, factory bushings, TBC bushings, no bushings - it doesn't matter... The tightest tolerance is to measure with calipers anyway!!
The spreadsheet is a HUGE help, and I don't see how you insulting the hard work put into it maps into it being the massive problem you implied in your posts.
alphageek
Former Moderator
edstreet
Member
Sorry, getting the topic back on topic per JEFF's personal request.
KenV
Member
I suspect that terminology is getting in the way of effective communications.
The terms "precision" and "tolerances" probably need to be used rather than unquantified words like "inaccuracies", especially with modifiers.
The terms "precision" and "tolerances" probably need to be used rather than unquantified words like "inaccuracies", especially with modifiers.
alphageek
Former Moderator
Huh? The posts are on topic. You opened the topic about if the charts are wrong or not. I've seen zero proof that the charts are wrong and was commenting on your replies to clarify and discuss. Just because you may not like the discussion doesn't make it off topic, nor do you get to speak for Jeff.
edstreet
Member
Very true there. Also I suspect some may find offense to 'slop' but if you hang around any good machine shop and mention it will immediately know what it means.
I would also like to point out and thank you for asking about this rather than following other and immediately bashing. Asking never hurts and always shows clarity where it may be lacking.
This is absolutely false: I am not "aware of the whom" (fail on grammer, Ed). You have refused to provide any information.
The simple facts are, Ed Street, that you have impugned the accuracy of a valuable IAP resource, have refused to provide substantiation, and refused to provide data you claim to have which could improve the resource. You claimed that the data contained gross inaccuracies, when in fact the differences are fractions of a millimeter related to the difference between factory bushings and custom bushings, and the data was never intended to encompass custom bushings.
You said that you had personally validated the claims of "several fabricators", yet you refuse to provide any data whatsoever. OK, you gave one set of numbers, and a nebulous reference to "a good 20 kits". You have further refused to put me in touch with these mystery fabricators who could help our community improve a valuable resource.
Ed, in a post a couple months ago you said, "I would like to urge you to stop being argumentative and please provide useful info to the topic at hand and help the community as a whole." In another post back in the Spring, you said, "I do like to keep things factual and not hearsay."
Those are two pieces of excellent advice, straight from your keyboard.
edstreet
Member
You do know. I have sent a pm with the names tonight.
It's always nice to keep threads on topic, but I did not make any such a request of you or anyone else related to this one.
edstreet
Member
Also a few days ago as ewe,l
Not to me you didn't.
edstreet
Member
Clearly there is no interest in anything I have to say. So you can contact any of the well know tbc makers to the public and ask then directly. See if they confirm what I have posted, and they will. Also contact suppliers like Tapco about bushings and they to will confirm what I stated about precision and tolerance levels.
Skie_M
Member
I would humbly like to report the post directly above mine for failing to not fail on an epic fail level.
No interest??? Are we on the same planet? Can I publish the PMs I've sent you for the past three days practically begging you for the information you claim to have?
You claimed to have sent me that info tonight, and you and I both know that's simply not true. And just prior to claiming you sent me the information, you told me it would be unethical for you to send it! So something is going on that is either untrue or unethical, right?
And for the record I don't need schooling from you or Tapco on GD&T.
edstreet
Member
The reply HERE would be. That was very clear in the pm, 'reply was posted'.
In the previous pm from me I did list names. I have not checked to see what was sent or where it was sent. Clearly you did not receive it and the intelligent thing would be for me to resend it or you could have simply called me rather than sending email to other people about me.
Since you need no schooling from Tapco then perhaps you could tell us the precision % on these numbers in the charts?
alphageek
Former Moderator
Huh... "grossly inaccurate" vs "precision %" Who needs schooling?
Precision has to do with the number of significant figures, not percentage. And your initial claim was inaccurate data.
Personally I'd suggest Jeff apply Occams Razor here... That without direct confirmation from reputable source of an issue, that Wayne continue the fabulous work he has done here.
jttheclockman
Member
Unless there is some drastic error in any of the dimensions in any of the charts then this rhetoric just has to do with making extreme tolerance bushings which to me is an individual vendor option. The measurements and bushings provided for the kits available are all within tolerance to work with without problem. I think as we progress in this hobby we learn right away that the best method of getting precision is the use of a caliper. But the bushings offered and the tubes used for the kits is well within acceptance. The word Slop was thrown around and I have to say very loosly. I use kits all the time and use the bushings, drill bits, tubes and components. I find them well within my tolerance and I am far from sloppy. I do not and never will need such tight tolerance bushings. The very first touch of a tool to that extreme bushing it lost it outside tolerance and with all kits plating of the componets vary from kit to kit.
I think this is a smoke screen and there is a back story here.
I believe Wayne is supplying us with valuable info and is doing a job that gets little notice and accolades.
I think this is a smoke screen and there is a back story here.
I believe Wayne is supplying us with valuable info and is doing a job that gets little notice and accolades.
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I can pick up a hammer and complain that it's not a good enough screwdriver, however it's helpful to remember the purpose for which something was designed.
Wayne's charts are reference guides which collect standard kit information from many vendors in one convenient place. On the top of every section it says, "Note: All data was compiled from suppliers published kit, tube and bushing information."
Obviously, if a custom pen-maker or some other entity wants to produce bushings, etc. which are a better match to components, that's great. But to complain that the chart doesn't give those dimensions is ridiculous.
And obviously, anyone interested in super precision work is going to measure every set of hardware he uses.
These charts are highly useful references. If there are errors, please report them in a clearly understood way to Wayne.
Wayne's charts are reference guides which collect standard kit information from many vendors in one convenient place. On the top of every section it says, "Note: All data was compiled from suppliers published kit, tube and bushing information."
Obviously, if a custom pen-maker or some other entity wants to produce bushings, etc. which are a better match to components, that's great. But to complain that the chart doesn't give those dimensions is ridiculous.
And obviously, anyone interested in super precision work is going to measure every set of hardware he uses.
These charts are highly useful references. If there are errors, please report them in a clearly understood way to Wayne.
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brownsfn2
Member
Can I make a request? I like the way the charts are separated now but is there a single download for all charts still available? Kind of like a master book with a title for each section? I just think it might be more convenient.
If it seems like too much to maintain then I understand the current setup is fine. Just more to download to get it into one folder that is easily reference able in the shop.
Thanks for all the work on this Wayne. I verified the kits I work with are accurate in the charts. (Jr Gent II, Sierra, Jr Emperor, Emperor, Majestic, Jr. Majestic, Atrax, Triton BP, Atrax BP, just to name few.)
Occasionally I get a kit that might be .001 to .002 different than the listed measurement. A human hair is around .004 so the accuracy is good unless I am building something that is going to be used to save lives or keep people from dying I think I am ok.
Thanks again.
If it seems like too much to maintain then I understand the current setup is fine. Just more to download to get it into one folder that is easily reference able in the shop.
Thanks for all the work on this Wayne. I verified the kits I work with are accurate in the charts. (Jr Gent II, Sierra, Jr Emperor, Emperor, Majestic, Jr. Majestic, Atrax, Triton BP, Atrax BP, just to name few.)
Occasionally I get a kit that might be .001 to .002 different than the listed measurement. A human hair is around .004 so the accuracy is good unless I am building something that is going to be used to save lives or keep people from dying I think I am ok.
Thanks again.